Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

It was a rhetorical device intended to get you to think it through.

Nearly everybody accepts sex and gender are different except TRAs.

The point is one is a real thing and the other is an amalgam of stereotypes, socially constructed patriachical ideals and traits considered sexually desirable or signifying youth and fertility. It is socially constructed. A concept. Not real. Therefore identifying or thinking you are that 'thing ' is meani gless.

Men are at the most risk of being murdered.

@Cw122

Your post states current or former male partners, that is by definition domestic violence though?

It was my post originally.

I specifically said "two women every week are murdered by current or former male partners in the UK".

I at no point said that only women are victims and only men are perpetrators of DV so why are you implying otherwise? Or have you just misread?

Obviously there is DV in lesbian relationships and gay relationships too. And obviously that DV, just like any, is completely unacceptable.

That doesn't change the statistic I shared which was "two women every week are murdered by current or former male partners in the UK".

* Okay, if you want contemporary examples look at the way Serena Williams is described and viewed in the public eye*

How is that and example of "people are categorised into male or female categories, but this has changed over time based on who we want to exclude, and historically excluded non-white women" ?

You think violence against women isn't under reported?

Strictly speaking it is likely that violence against gay men is the most under reported
That doesn't make gay men female and it doesn't mean resources for women should be redirected

All groups that face violence and discrimination deserve respect and safety

Not just the male ones

For me it can't be feminism unless it's intersectional and fights for equality. Because how can women be equal unless ALL women are equal. What harms one of us harms all of us to an extent. That absolutely includes trans women and for those asking about what happens when there's a conflict- really there's not that much conflict that occurs in reality that can't be resolved with open discourse and genuine attempt at understanding

But you have not demonstrated how TW are in any meaningful way women. Lets start by you explaining what I have in common with a TW that I don't have in common with other males?

Your comment that there is not much conflict is highly offensive when you look at what is happening to women in prisons and rape crisis centres. It's a horribly self-centred thing to say. Do you mean it's not affecting you that much and you don't care about those who it is affecting?

As explained before, women from the global south are more likely to have higher levels of testosterone and are therefore viewed as hyper masculine.

Do you know why there are higher rates of intersex/DSD conditions in some places?

Your post states current or former male partners, that is by definition domestic violence though?

The point is about femicide, not DV as a whole, and it isn't my post, I was quoting it. At no point is that statement about anything other than men killing women.

@electricdreaming the ons stats. 177 women were killed in 20/21, 416 men.

Ons

Exactly. Women and both sexes of trans people are all safer than men, trans people being much much more so.

Okay I’ll admit defeat. I can’t provide you an example. Those works can. If you really want one, please read them. However I have provided a statement and backed it up with works that will prove that. I don’t care enough to prove my point to re-read them just to find examples. It was a long time trawling through them and I’d rather not relive it lol. The evidence is out there though, if you are genuinely interested. As a side note, the history of sexuality and womanhood is an interesting topic and well worth investing time in researching if you can be bothered, at this moment in time, I can’t. I don’t care if I get vilified for being unable to provide an example lol I’ve been arguing this point for 4 hours and I am tired. I don’t think I’m likely to change anyones opinion, and they’re entitled to it.

No, do you? I’m genuinely interested if you know.

I totally agree that as a society we've become expectant of and dismissive around violence against women absolutely but I think it's important that we don't talk in absolutes, like I said earlier rates of violence against trans people is wildly under reported. The statistics that charities like women's aid report are very different from what the police and home office report because not all incidents of violence are formally reported. I'm not saying there isn't a massive issue for women, I'm just saying that it's even harder for transwomen to report because of the additional barriers they face just as it is for women in particular communities and ethnic backgrounds or religious groups. My point is that when we try to say who has it worse, we dismiss the fact that it shouldn't be happening to anyone at all. Period. No woman regardless of gender identity, race, religion etc should ever be experiencing violence and that's why I said earlier what hurts one of us hurts all of us. By getting bogged down into these little arguments we miss the bigger picture altogether and we lose the intersectionality that feminism needs to have.

I agreed with Greer that equality under patriarchy was the wrong goal. Why would we want to be equal under a system that is shit in the first place? I don't know if she suggested an alternative, and I don't have one myself. I do think the more women work together, build communities, raise their voices - the more likely we are to think of new ways of doing things. Patriarchy in the west seems quite Roman to me - very keen on hierarchies, expansion, colonising, male dominance, the appearance of strength. It seems so ingrained in the institutions, history, laws. It would take a long time to unpack and analyse.

So you don’t think a woman with a vulva who happens to have high levels of testosterone is a woman? That’s fine. I do. They’re treated like a woman and would probably never know they weren’t a woman, according to your standards, if they’d never been tested for their testosterone levels.

Are you still referring to those males being now excluded in sports? If so, Please! Please stop with this conflation of sex and gender.

You keep referring to ‘females with high testosterone’. If you are going to continue to do this, please provide the testosterone levels you are referring to. Because at this moment we are confused as to whether you are referring still to males with differences in sex development or females.

@electricdreaming

Okay I’ll admit defeat. I can’t provide you an example. Those works can. If you really want one, please read them.

If you believe what you said and believe that the works you shared show examples... why does it have to be the labour of other people to trawl through to find those examples?

If they are there, it will be much easier for you to find them (as the person who knows they are there!) than for someone else to.

It's so disingenuous to imply that if someone doesn't want to read an entire paper, they should just accept what you say as true.

If you make bold claims and say they are proven in a study / paper then the onus is on you to share the specific example youre referencing.

No, do you? I’m genuinely interested if you know

Consanguinity is thought to be the reason.

Nope. Because I don’t base my womanhood or anyone else’s identification as a woman on their suffering or discrimination, statistical or individual.

They don’t have to accept it’s true - if you don’t want to read it then don’t, don’t believe me. I don’t have those works in front of me and I’m not going to read 40+ page works to find a specific example - I have a life. I know that the work shows examples because I directly quoted it in my dissertation with a statement. I provided a statement, a source with the evidence and that wasn’t sufficient. That’s fine, don’t believe me, but I can’t be bothered to find a specific example to prove it. If anyone is genuinely interested and wants to read up on it, the sources are there. If you think I’m making it up, that’s okay! I really don’t mind if you can’t be arsed to read it because I can’t either.

My definition of woman isn't based on suffering and discrimination

But my feminism is based on that fact that as a class women suffer these things because of their sex which is wrong

Here’s the link, I think someone else asked for it

Thanks. I've definitely seen this figure debunked, will post it if I find it. Also weird that the press release you've posted doesn't link to the actual report.

I’ve never seen people double down on being wrong so much. It’s fascinating.

I know don’t get me started on how long it took me to find the actual source, hence why I can’t find it now lol. But I am pretty sure it’s the Flores one

Nope. Because I don’t base my womanhood or anyone else’s identification as a woman on their suffering or discrimination, statistical or individual.

Then we agree on at least one thing, DidiMum. Being a woman isn't a consolation prize for males who experience oppression.

I’ve explained how historically black women were associated with hyper masculinity and seen as a threat to white women and female fragility.

I can see why Sebastian Coe complained about second rate sociologists. If you couldn't be bothered to tell the difference between males with DSDs and women in your PhD thesis then second rate doesn't begin to describe it. I shan't ask who examined your thesis but you don't make it sound as if they were up to their job.

FWIW your use of this argument is racist in itself. Black sportswomen are not men with DSDs, and including black men with DSDs in women's sport only plays into the prejudice that black sportswomen are not really women, thus cementing racism and sexism against black women.