Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

There’s already a difference of opinion on what makes someone a woman - is it a vagina or is it ovaries? If someone has one but not the other are they male or female? This is why, for me, feminism should include all those who are treated as a woman and experience the discrimination that comes with that.

I will give it a go.

A female human has a body formed around the production of large gametes, regardless of whether that body does, has or will in the future produce those large gametes.

To be clear, this also includes those humans with differences in sex development that are only experienced by females.

What does being treated as a woman mean?

Is Lia Thomas treated as a woman?

Personally, I think all women have experienced sex/gender discrimination. They are perceived to be x, y, z based on the fact they are a woman. If someone has experienced these, whether that be because they’re a biological woman or they’re trans and “pass”, then they deserve to be included in feminism surely?

But does an adult human female have to have ovaries, XX chromosomes and a vagina to be a female?

So disingenuous.

Humans typically have two arms and two legs.

People who have a different number of limbs (whether from birth or during their life) aren't any less human.

Women typically have a uterus.

Women who don't have a uterus (whether from birth or during their life) aren't any less women, as you well know.

For someone who wrote an academic document about trans people, you seem to be lacking in understanding when it comes to fundamental biology.

Do you mean vagina or vulva?

If someone is born with a deformity meaning they have no vulval opening, it they have ovaries and a vagina, they’re a woman

If they have ovaries and a penis they are intersex.

But we are talking about a tiny minority of people. The vast majority - as in 99.99% - of babies born with a vulva will have the other characteristics and it’s a pretty sure fire way of identifying them as a girl.

I realise my argument isn’t foolproof because it disregards trans women who don’t “pass”, which is again why I’ve said it’s a complex issue.

A female can have ovaries and no vagina. A female can have their ovaries removed. A female can have ovaries that are not formed properly, injured or not working.

If their body is formed around the production of large gametes the lack of a vagina is not the issue you make it.

If a person has a male difference of sex development, they are male. Surprisingly, it is very rare to have a difference in sex development that is not classified as specific to male or female. And those with differences in sex development have repeatedly asked on MN that their bodies not be used to destabilise known and proven science.

No, I'm not talking about passing.

Why are you treating men and women differently, in circumstances where biological sex doesn't justify any difference in treatment?

I agree with your post though - I think women typically have those things, but don’t necessarily have to to still be classed as a woman. Hence why I think female athletes with higher levels of testosterone are still women.

But that’s implying that TW who don’t pass don’t experience sexism?

Do masculine looking women not experience sexism?

they deserve to be included in feminism surely?
FFS. Being a woman is not a prize that you need to work for. You either are a woman or you're not. T W are not. Does that make them lesser? No. It just makes them men.

Because men and women are treated differently. That’s the point of feminism? I don’t understand your question.

No of course it’s not a prize but if people are discriminated against based on sex or gender surely they deserve to be supported and we should aim for their equality as much as any other woman.

Have to say @electricdreaming i appreciate your staying power! Most people just tell us to fuck off bigots and then do one. At least you have stuck around and put your point forward even when people aren’t always agreeing with you!

Very well put.

I don't care whether men want to grow their hair and wear dresses and make up. If they choose to do that then I believe they should have every human right going and complete equality and protection.

Likewise 'tomboys' shouldn't be discriminated against because they don't conform to feminine stereotypes.

None of these people should be led to believe that they have to actually be a member of the opposite sex because of how they choose to dress.

It blows my mind and I would genuinely love somebody to come and explain it to me. Why can't people express themselves however they want without having to label themselves as different to their biology/how they were born? Why can't 'men' look like 'women' without having to insist that they are actually women and thereby deny basic science?

Supported, yes of course. Supported as women. That is nonsensical. You can support someone without denying reality.

Sorry, I don't agree.

Women don't choose to be discriminated against due to their sex.

If a trans woman manages to "pass" successfully enough to be mistaken for a woman and is discriminated against as a result, they have, to a certain extent, chosen it. And they can opt out of it again any time they like by going back to presenting as male.

In reality, most trans women do not pass and are not treated as women. Neither do they want to be treated how women are treated, because women are treated like shit. On the rare occasions when trans women are treated the way women are treated, rather than with the male privilege they are accustomed to, they complain of "transphobia".

Lia Thomas isn't treated as a woman. Lia is treated as though Lia is far more important than the women.

I know what you mean @AmaryllisNightAndDay. Earlier this year I apologised to my niece for allowing a criminal justice to reduce her to such a state that she was admitted into acute mental health hospital. The psychiatrist was brilliant. He said she was not ill but reacting completely naturally to the trauma she'd experienced.

Hahaha thank you, I really don’t think anyone is a transphobe for disagreeing with me, and I think it’s an important debate to have. We do need to protect women and girls and I appreciate that people have concerns over trans women. I just think sometimes the argument can fall apart because the classification of women isn’t as straightforward as it appears, even purely in terms of biological women. I don’t think it boils down to ovaries, because until a woman reaches puberty or tries to conceive, how do we know if they have them? For me it’s more about the external parts, like a vulva/penis. But then I suppose no one has actually lifted up my skirt and checked I have a vulva before discriminated against me on the basis I’m a woman, so I don’t think it’s that straightforward either.

But nobody who has gone through childhood and adolescence as a male can 'experience all the discrimination that comes with' being a woman.

Because they haven't been on the receiving end of the discrimination and disadvantages specifically experienced by girls and women due to their sex.

Trans women of course face other types of discrimination and disadvantage after transitioning but that doesn't mean they have experienced being a woman or the issues being a woman raises.

Sport is a good example. Trans women have benefitted from male puberty, which gives them advantages that cannot be undone such as increased muscle mass, lung capacity etc. Being born male and treated as male, even just in childhood and teen years, supplies someone with specific advantages in comparison to natal women.

There cannot be meaningful and fair competition between natal males and natal females in any sport requiring strength, power or contact.

In all boxing, featherweights don't box against heavyweights. This is an example of sensible safeguarding. Do you think it's discriminatory in an unfair way? Presumably not.

So why shouldn't women in other sports have the same level of safeguarding and injury risk management as boxers?

But there IS a 'clear cut way to “deal” with the trans problem @electricdreaming

You treat everyone according to their sex not their chosen gender.

I used to play roller derby and was close to many trans women. I will describe three of them.

TW1 literally makes the world a better place, they pass as well as any man can pass as a woman, they are kind, gentle, funny and a wonderful human being. I would trust them to look after my children, I had no problem sharing a changing room with them or using their preferred pronouns.

TW 2 was an aggressive sort. They were lovely when the women were fawning over them ( fawning over TW and male nb's happens a lot in roller derby), however anyone who disagreed with them were subject to aggressive arguing, and being shouted down. They also called women 'bitches' and 'whores' because they could get away with it, because apparently they were one.

TW 3 was quieter. Would describe them self as 'a good girl' and 'prim and proper'. They would harp on about them being 'only 5 foot six' because it made them feel small and petite. However, if you looked at this person's Twitter account, (scroll though many photos of their legs in tights, but 'it's not a fetish apparently) it turns out they like to be treated like a little girl, they suck dummies, and wear nappies to bed. Apparently 'age play' is 'relaxing'.

Surely you can see the red flags waving around number 3? This person should not be in the company of any child unaccompanied at all, but especially girls.

Now unfortunately it's not possible to say 'well TW 1 can come in, but 2 & 3 must stay out'. It's an all or nothing package and I will happily keep TW1 out of women's spaces to keep women and girls safe from 2 and especially 3.

Surely you wouldn't allow 2 & 3 in for the sake of 1?

Well yes, that's the point.

This is what gender is. Sexist bullshit that is used to justify treating women as a lower class of humans than men.

We should be working towards abolishing gender completely. Trans people want to structure society around it, which is why what they want is in conflict with feminism.

They want to define women as people who perform feminine stereotypes, because that is the only definition that can include them.

I actually really agree with this post, I don’t think we should be defined as women because we wear dresses and make up or whatever else. It shouldn’t be I like doing these things and therefore am a woman - you’re still a man, you just like to wear things or act in a way that is typically associated with women. I think the way forward is actually to dismantle gender, but until we get to that point, what do trans people do?

Oh stop it. It's really not hard in 99.99999% of cases to tell who is m or f. It's only in the last decade that people have started suggesting it is. It's insulting.