Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

I think the way forward is actually to dismantle gender, but until we get to that point, what do trans people do?
Accept reality? Plenty of them manage to do this already. It's not hard.

Feminism should be fighting for equal standing of females and fighting for females against the ever encroaching male dominated world.

@electricdreaming

So genuine question - it seems that you think that a trans woman who doesn't 'pass' is less of a woman than one who does, is that right?

And that a trans woman who has only very recently declared their identity to be 'woman', so hasn't yet experienced the discrimination you believe is due to trans women being perceived to be biologically female, is less of a woman than someone who transitioned years ago and has experienced the discrimination you believe is due to trans women being perceived to be biologically female?

This is where your own argument would be labelled as transphobic by the same people you likely support, who call us t*fs.

Because it's meant to be #nodebate because those who call us that believe that trans women are women, no exceptions.

I think the way forward is actually to dismantle gender, but until we get to that point, what do trans people do?

Work out a solution that doesn't trample over womens rights. And certainly don't expect to be the focus of feminism or specifically included in it. Be allies with feminists not colonisers. There are trans people who do this.

I don't care whether men want to grow their hair and wear dresses and make up. If they choose to do that then I believe they should have every human right going and complete equality and protection.

Likewise 'tomboys' shouldn't be discriminated against because they don't conform to feminine stereotypes.

THIS

More men is dresses I say! That accept they’re men and they want to smash stereotypes. Isn’t that better than assigning a ‘gender’ to normal things like clothes?

Likewise I’m sick of DD being called a ‘tomboy’. She’s just a girl who doesn’t subscribe to the usual pink glittery definition. Why are we labellling people who don’t conform to stereotypes especially children?

But that's what gender is.

You can either define women as female people, or you can define women as people who perform feminine stereotypes.

There aren't really any other options.

As for "what do trans people do?" I'd say they should do what feminists do. Fight gender stereotypes, not reinforce them.

A woman with MRKH syndrome is, by definition, female. If she were male, not having a functioning uterus would be part of the design, not a medical condition.

Exactly. But many trans activists consider males (who may have been or in some cases still are perfectly fertile males) to be exactly the same as women with MKRH, with AUFI (Absolute Uterine Factor Infertility). It's deeply offensive.

It’s not necessarily that I think trans women who don’t pass are less of a woman than trans women who do, it’s just that my arguments aren’t as strong there and do fall apart slightly. I probably would go as far as to say trans women who have recently transitioned and therefore haven’t experienced discrimination are less of a woman yes. I know my argument is somewhat flawed and has holes in it, but I think if we define women solely on sex we ignore biological women who don’t have the mechanism to reproduce, and could run the risk of excluding those who can’t/don’t reproduce. I also think that saying you can tell just by looking at someone if they’re a man or a woman excludes biological men and women who have feminine/masculine features respectively. I’m quite a butch woman and have occasionally been mistaken for a man - some might look at me and say they could tell my sex and they’d be wrong.

Of course defining people by biological sex doesn't exclude people who can't reproduce.

No newborn baby can reproduce, but we know what sex they are.

That's pretty clear then. Pretty much everyone can tell the difference between a trans woman and a woman. Any discrimination a trans woman experiences is not the same as that experienced by a woman. So feminism includes women only.

Women are treated as women.

Men are treated as men.

Trans women are overwhelmingly treated as trans women (not 'just' women) because the overwhelming majority do not pass as 'just' women.

You cannot possibly believe that trans women experience the same sex class based discrimination as women. Because any discrimination they face isn't rooted in being a woman.

Feminism has the goal of stopping the unique discrimination faced by female bodied people.

Transactivism has the goal of stopping the unique discrimination faced by trans people.

Arguing that male bodied people should be included in the activism specifically fighting for the rights of female bodied people is not only a nonsense, it's offensive.

A male cannot 'opt' in to the sex specific oppression and discrimination females face.

A male bodied person can experience oppression and discrimination for lots of other reasons, from sexuality and disability to race and religion.

They cannot experience the specific and unique oppression and discrimination female bodied people face, based on their sex class, that feminism aims to combat.

Using the existence of intersex people and people who have suffered racism as gotchas when it comes to trans issues is offensive and something that those groups of people have specifically and repeatedly widely asked people not to do.

But if we’re defining them based on whether or not they have ovaries, we don’t do we because we can only see their genitals? If a woman has a vulva but no ovaries, should they be classed as a woman and allowed to compete in sports with other women?

I don’t think it boils down to ovaries, because until a woman reaches puberty or tries to conceive, how do we know if they have them? For me it’s more about the external parts, like a vulva/penis.

Do you actually understand differences in sex development? Your posts seem to counter medical knowledge and you rely on these medical conditions to define sexes.

Differences in sex development are reliably categorized in almost all instances as being male or female conditions. Surely you know this if you used people with differences in sex development in your thesis?

That is exactly what is old school feminists spent our time fighting against. Gender stereotypes are regressive for everyone. Gender non conforming is just that - not conforming to the regressive stereotypes the patriarchy has imposed on males and females - and is something to be welcomed and accepted as normal. Gender conforming behaviour is just as normal and acceptable.

Pretty sure answer is no. I have beliefs that discqualify me from being F.

For those who are feminist, does any issue matter to your other than resenting men?

We're not defining them individually by whether they have certain parts of the reproductive system, it's whether they belong to the female or the male sex class. The athletics rules only exclude people with XY chromosomes who have a disorder of sex development. This has zero to do with gender identity ideology. The overwhelming majority of MTF trans people are perfectly average XY developmentally typical males.

I don't resent men

I do resent patriarchal society

I think that how you are expected to behave and what you are expected to be able to do should not be assumed because of your sex

Why does every thread about feminism end up being about men? (Trans debate)

Can't we even have the topic of feminism to our own!!

And I really resent people telling me that woman is an identity and using all their patriarchal privilege in the process

Ah I see we’ve reached the ‘women who can’t have babies could be seen to be like TW’ stage

once again as an infertile woman I am sick to fucking death of my infertility being weaponised to try & prove that TW are a bit like women who can’t have children therefore TWAW

I can’t have children because my female biology doesn’t work properly not because I’m a fucking man

I don’t think we should be defined as women because we wear dresses and make up or whatever else.

So what gender markers does a trans woman have that you believe mean they are a woman, just like natal women?

If your list includes things born from societal constructs and oppression, such as clothing, make up etc then you're simply promoting gender stereotypes... can you think of one marker that makes trans women women, that isn't a feeling they are a woman or a desire to be a woman?

I think the way forward is actually to dismantle gender, but until we get to that point, what do trans people do?

I could say "the way forward is to stop male violence against women and girls, but until we get to that point what do women do?"

I'll tell you what we do. We fight for change specific to our sex class. We fight for rights needed due to our sex class.

Including male bodied people within the feminism umbrella specifically undermines that fight.

We rallied, we marched and we fought for specific changes needed to keep us safe. We've been doing this for hundreds of years and it's far from succeeded despite incredible women making incredible strides.

How can you think it right that male bodied people can now build on those foundations hard fought for by women?

Trans women are welcome to fight the specific discrimination and issues they face.

Just as women had to, have done and continue to do.

It is not fair or right for them to ask to be included under the term 'women' in feminism.

Why is it not enough for trans women to fight for their own specific protection, rather than asking women to do so when there is already such an uphill battle for progress when it comes to sexism and violence against women and girls?

What's your point?

For 99.99% of the population, the external genitalia corresponds to their sex and that is all anyone needs to know.

In a very small number of cases, e.g. Caster Semenya, there might later be a need to determine what someone's chromosomal sex is.

But this has nothing to do with whether trans women are women.

Who the heck are the 14% of voters saying they are not a feminist?? Seriously I have never met a woman who was happy to say she was not a feminist. Who doesn't want to supports rights for women and girls in what ever form they decide that takes?

@babyjellyfish everyone's