To not want to celebrate people's weddings/marriages

[Waferbiscuit]

There are a number of people in my office getting married and the grumpy old cynic in me is finding it hard to get excited. I'm not sure marriage means much these days, what with the almost 50% divorce rate. Given that it's a commitment that is fairly easy to escape from, what exactly are we celebrating - the hope that it will work out or a legal contract committing them to one another?

In fact I can't help but feel that for many couples marriage is primarily the joining together of two people's assets and/or protecting one another, and in that way perhaps couples need to be more discrete about marriage, a bit like one is when they win the lotto or come into an inheritance.... keep it quiet.

Of course if couples do want to make an emotional commitment to each other, that's between them and seems like something you'd agree to privately.

I'm happy to celebrate major achievements in life that involve a lot of effort, things like someone graduating with a Phd or getting a black belt in karate. But celebrating a commitment that can easily be unravelled or a legal contract that ensures the sharing of assets... well that doesn't seem much to celebrate, does it? AIBU?

@Trying20

Yep that’s right. Marriage was very similar for the longest time - binding and quite traditional. You know that. Nowdays it’s not.

I can see your very invested in modern marriage still being as important and special as ever though despite the very high divorce rate and it’s throwaway nature so whatevs.

Of the weddings I have attended over the past 20+yrs none of those couples have split up or divorced (probably about 30 weddings) so I think I'm not as jaded as some.
One of my siblings is getting married this year and I'm really excited and looking forward to it.
I see it as a nice opportunity to catch up with friends and family.

Whatever, the PhD was a random example plucked out of the ether. I don't have a PhD and I have no idea what their value is.

My point is that weddings are held up as being more important by several leagues of magnitude than any other achievement by a woman. And also that there's a general expectation that all women are expected to get excited about all weddings and work themselves up into a frenzy about them.

And, by extension, that they are "bitter" or "jealous" or "single" if they are not.

I entered into my marriage because I love my DH.

It was as simple as that. We chose to celebrate with friends and family because I wanted to celebrate our love and the joining of our families. Sounds a bit wet but it’s true. It was not elaborate or expensive, just a nice happy day.

People are always coming up with excuses as to why we shouldn’t celebrate milestones, I just see them as misery’s.

I agree to some extent that weddings can be a bit awkward and long but you can always choose not to go.

Crumbs, I can’t remember reading a more joyless thread!

@Trying20

Yeah, it is. Going from an extremely low divorce rate to a very high divorce rate (and across the western world) over a matter of decades is very much a cliff edge. The effect is that marriage has become less and less important decade by decade, because it really is meaningless as far as being a binding institution or representative of any kind of binding way to make a family.

So what is marriage now really? Just some laws that apply when you break up with your boyfriend or girlfriend which could happen whenever, which you may or may not be happy with depending on what the laws do for you. And that’s something people should be excited to celebrate? Why?

I am as feminist as they come and I love a good wedding (and a happy marriage). I feel that marriage still represents a public commitment to ‘team-up’ and when it is made by people I care about and want to see happy – then I am more than willing to celebrate.

It's cool to see relationships progress through different stages - I remember being there when a couple of my good friends met their future partners for the first time, then seeing them getting excited at the early dating stages, then watching them move in together and then being there when they got married and now catching up with kids going to secondary schools - it's a privilege to be a part of people's lives. And if they get divorced, so be it - it doesn't negate the past.

Saying that I’ve never actually been to a wedding where it was perceived to be the highest personal achievement by any of the parties involved.

I really don’t believe this actually. I don’t think most people could care less whether other people are married or have kids etc. It’s just that, as the societal norm, it’s hard to escape talking about it sometimes, and it must feel like the entire world revolves around the family set-up to single or childfree people.

I do think women’s achievements are celebrated, just look at the Lionesses last night. They even have full run of the overtly sexist daily Mail…

I mean, if you don't think weddings should be celebrated, that's fine. Don't celebrate them.

But given that weddings have been celebratory occasions in human cultures right across the world for millennia, I doubt humanity is going to change its ways just because you're bitter about other people having a party.

To quote the internet meme: "Sssshhh. Just let people enjoy things."

@Wouldloveanother

I don’t think most people could care less whether other people are married or have kids etc. It’s just that, as the societal norm, it’s hard to escape talking about it sometimes, and it must feel like the entire world revolves around the family set-up to single or childfree people.

I don't think people are looked down upon in the same way for being single or child free. But there is definitely still this weird expectation that all women, explicitly or secretly, want to get married. And the whole wedding frenzy: the expectation that everyone wants to go to dress fittings and talk about canape menus and dance to Abba and basically suspend adult conversation for the duration of the time the wedding is being planned.

You only have to look a this thread: there are at least a dozen people who have posted on here to tell the OP she is "bitter" or "jealous" or a "fun sponge".

I pretty much guarantee you if someone posted: "I'm really bored of hearing about my colleagues degrees/successful marathons" you wouldn't get that sort of reaction on here.

well, she is being a fun sponge to be honest. There seems to be a Puritanical pride on mumsnet about who can be the most sneery and disdainful of parties, baby showers, weddings. Even expecting a bit of a fuss on your birthday is seen as frivolous and shallow.

the reason I’m less bothered about someone else’s degree is because I’m not being invited to a party 😂 there’s no champagne, dancing or socialising in it for me, so why would I be?

people like a piss up, they like a party, they like a wedding atmosphere. I don’t think it’s a huge emotional investment in the union of the couple (although of course, I wish them well!) it’s more that people get excited because they’re involved/invited.

I'm with you OP but maybe not for the the exact same reasons. I just don't understand the fuss. Mind you, I hate weddings, parties and all other social events so maybe I am biased. I think that people who go on and on about their wedding are incredibly boring.

In my day you got engaged; then married within a few months. The service would be in a church, followed by a small reception in the village hall or a local hotel. The Hen night and stag do were evening events, usually at a pub or restaurant. The honeymoon would often be taken in the couple's own country.

I think weddings, hen nights and the rest have become ridiculously overpriced. But I suppose it's up to the couple and not for us to judge.

Agree with this so much... 'oiling the social wheels', doesn't mean too much engagement and (if you don't feel it), sounds good and does the trick!

I note usual fun sponge/joyless posters zoomed in to put you straight, OP. I would ignore them and follow Kanaloa's very pertinent advice.

@Trying20

Your obviously invested in believing modern marriage is still something as relevant or special as ever but the reality is it isn’t. The simple truth is that despite what you say about marriage constantly evolving, for hundreds of years (more), for most people, marriage was expected to be for life and binding. Acting like suddenly going from a extremely low divorce rate to a comparatively extremely high divorce rate where marriage could last a year and be no more serious than a high school fling is just another evolution like any other is wilful delusion.

Marriage isn’t evolving, on its current trajectory it’s dying. Precisely because it has no meaning.
Unless it simply comes to mean the brief cohabitation laws governing couples why they bother to stay together and we call that marriage - if that is the path it’s evolution takes then people aren’t going to bother celebrating that.

The big celebration and emotion is a hold over from a time when marriage meant more than it does. The vows are the same.
If we adjusted our celebrations to the reality of modern marriage then first off there would be no wedding, maybe people could send a text that’s about all that’s warranted and second the vows should read something like “till one of us loses the feels or gets the ick, or grows apart, or meets someone new, or sees a red flag - do we part”.

That made me laugh, SammySammySammy, entirely apposite.

Weddings aren't everyone's cup of tea and some are a faff. Marriages on the other hand, I'd say maintaining a good relationship for many years takes plenty of effort. The idea marriage takes no effort isn't traditional.

I eloped so I guess I was being discreet about it, but even though I wanted to avoid wedding drama, I think there aren't enough joyful milestones and many efforts get overlooked. I'm not going to put the bar to celebrate at such a high threshold that most won't ever get any. Making a significant legal commitment, with all the risks and benefits, seems as good as good a reason to celebrate as any.

I mean, most people say congrats and are willing to celebrate a pregnancy even with the risks of birth injury being for many far more likely than divorce for most demographics. Using the full divorce rate is pretty meaningless when looking at individuals. Risk of divorce varies a lot more than birth injury rates last I read.

it's fair and reasonable to suggest if an institution is not upheld in the way it used to that it has less value.

Feminist writers were not about wanting to uphold a social institution as it was or acting like it had the most value as it was. Marriage is a legal commitment. The legal bindings around it have often been what feminists of many stripes fought to change.

It was very similar in essence - it was for life and women were in the home and expected to bear children. That was marriage in a nutshell.

Not from the writings of the time and before that. Many of the writings on it were about security, propriety, and post-Romantics, securing happiness while knowing there was an equal risk of misery. Children were considered a blessing of marriage, but people knew it wasn't guaranteed to always be expected. Women in many backgrounds were expected to work, whether it was from the home or out. Even well-to-do ones when finances became difficult.

Even with more barriers in the way, people left marriages then too. There is a lot out there on people, usually men, just leaving sometimes just weeks after the wedding. Not having a legal way didn't stop it, it just meant those left behind had a harder time being protected. That was part of the argument in making more liberal divorce laws - to prevent abandonment and the many pains it caused. It's why abandonment is included in both divorce of marriage and dissolution of civil partnership laws.

If we look at the more wealthy men, monogamy for life to their wife was certainly not an expectation or even considered desirable in many times and places.

Marriage legally and socially has always been changing and how important, meaningful and binding has always varied broadly across the population. The idea there was an ideal time when everyone took marriage seriously for life is rose-tinted nonsense.

This thread is gold standard MN. MN hates weddings and romance 😂 back in the real world, most of us are happy to celebrate our loved ones and friends’ declarations of love.

I presume you aren’t in a happy relationship and this is the reason for your curmudgeonly attitude to those in love. DH and I got married because we love one another deeply. Nothing to do with assets or finance. Same with all of my friends. We had a big, wonderful, joyful wedding, we are still blissfully married years later. Marriage is such a positive force in both mine and DH’s lives.

It’s really sad that you are so joyless. I can’t imagine you’re much fun to be around. It’s a shame you aren’t able to feel happy for others. Sorry, but you sound such a misery guts 🤷🏻‍♀️

YANBU. I'm married but really don't see what all the fuss is about. It's not a great achievement, or anything more special than just being a couple that are committed to each other. I think a wedding fulfils a persons need for attention, something that most of us secretly crave but would never admit. I think weddings and marriage in general are slowly becoming outdated thank god.

I really disagree with the point about phds. Some first degrees are now devalued due to the numbers of people taking them and grade inflation. This really isn’t true for phds where the standard is as high as ever, you have to persuade someone to fund you and to produce something genuinely new and substantial. (Not an academic by the way.)

I love celebrating weddings but I don’t see marriage as an achievement in any sense, and certainly not “more important by several leagues of magnitude by any other achievement by a woman”- Christ, who thinks like that? And why call it an achievement “by a woman” as if women are all out to hook a man and men are just passive hookees? These objections would have been outdated 50 years ago.

@MandyRice

Because to most people relationships matter and are interesting and important - and to most people whatever someone did their PHD in is boring and irrelevant.