Ukrainian guest …I’m not feeling comfortable

[CookieDoughKid]

I’ve been hosting a Ukrainian mother and 15yo daughter since beginning of May. We get on ok although we live very different lives even before the war. She’s a SAhM and I’m a working mum full time. It’s been difficult for her to adjust because her husband used to do everything, such as banking, booking train tickets, appointments. It’s been a real learning curve having to stand on her own feet here. Fortunately she can speak some English so over time, I have been able to take a step back from supporting her on how to live in England. her dd will be taking GCSE exams next summer term.

My kids and her dd don’t like each other and don’t get on. The mother is a bit work shy in that she is very choosy about jobs being offered to her by the job agency. She does a week here or there. Nothing permanent or full time. She is not claiming UC after it was made apparent she would have to look for work or go back to work full time. Her husband is supporting her financially. I broached the subject of long term accommodation and the challenges of finding rent. I was surprised to learn they have 10000 USD saved, husband has a good job in software in Ukraine. They are prepared to rent but would rather not as they don’t want to ‘waste their money’. I know they’d rather go back home if the war was over.

I had pledged at the start to give them half of the £350 thank you money from Gov to be used as a deposit for their rent when they move on. That’s £150 a month I would give to them for the 12 months commitment. I keep £150. I know I don’t have to do it but I wanted them to feel like they have some longevity here without too much hardship. That was prior to me learning about their savings. With everything going on at home, me working full time, my two teens…I’m finding it all a bit much. The mother is lovely but so talkative and she’s always there. Sand my day is incredibly busy, I travel for work, I have my own children to look after.

what gripes me is that she also doesn’t pay a single thing or offer when I’ve said from the start she needs to sort it herself I’m talking about washing powder and sundries….she does pay her own food. I’m starting to resent the fact that she never offers to pay for dishwasher tablets, stationery paper, toilet roll, cling film, aluminium foil, washing powder, cleaning goods, kitchen napkins etc… It all adds up.

Come October, it will have been 6 months of me hosting. Would I be unreasonable to ask her to plan on moving out …I think I can tolerate them living with me to Jan 2023 (that would be 9 months in total) but she’s mentioned she wants to stay with me till next June so that her dd can sit her exams without interruption.

Should I ask for a household contribution? And what about the £150 a month I pledged? It’s not that I can’t afford it, I can but I feel I’m being taken for a ride.

she mentioned she wanted help in applying for UC housing benefit in the future which does not sit well with me knowing she is supported by her husband, has savings and is choosy with jobs?

fwiw, we both try very hard to get on. She’s helpful sith cleaning and so am I, and we have a good rhythm in sharing the kitchen etc. we don’t argue and we haven’t had any major spats.

it’s just that I am finding it hard to live with someone who is so different in outlook to me and living with us full stop. My dad was a refugee, he held down 3 jobs 7 days a week for a while and that work ethic is very strong in me (I don’t rely on my husband financially and never have but that’s my choice). I know if I was to live with someone not out of choice I would work really hard, and try to move out as soon as possible!

would like your perspective on this. I feel really guilty even thinking about asking her to move out but also, I feel they would have had 8 or 9 months free living so..isn’t that generous in itself?

Women in Ukraine have significantly worse lives than in the UK, men are much more mysogenistic as with much of Eastern Europe, so we can expect women refugees to be a mixed bunch at best.
Add to that many don’t want to move back when normality resumes it can get very demanding to host refugees however well meaning you are. The best situation is where they have their own space, near to other refugees, and get support from others with similar experiences.

@BloodAndFire @Circleofshells 💐

Horrified by some of the comments on this thread. The complete privilege and lack of understanding of refugees to this country, and their views that some are more deserving than others, where is the compassion.

Separated from your husband, your possessions, your house and your homeland and that’s still not a deserving refugee unless you have no money, are a working mother that speaks English, and have seen atrocities first hand. Grim. I wonder how any of these posters would cope themselves thrust into such a situation.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical to agree with the fact that they are not economic migrants but expect them to behave like they are?

Just a primer for anyone who may not be familiar with post traumatic stress disorder (ptsd). A meta analysis- Here- found that an estimated 1 in 3 refugees experience PTSD, an estimated 1 in 2 experience depression and 1 in 2 experience an anxiety disorder. The rate of PTSD could be as high as 48%.

“PTSD is diagnosed after a person experiences symptoms for at least one month following a traumatic event. However symptoms may not appear until several months or even years later. The disorder is characterized by three main types of symptoms:

Re-experiencing the trauma through intrusive distressing recollections of the event, flashbacks, and nightmares.
Emotional numbness and avoidance of places, people, and activities that are reminders of the trauma.
Increased arousal such as difficulty sleeping and concentrating, feeling jumpy, and being easily irritated and angered

Diagnosis criteria that apply to adults, adolescents, and children older than six include those below. Read more details here.

Exposure to actual or threatened death, serious injury, or sexual violation:

directly experiencing the traumatic events

witnessing, in person, the traumatic events
learning that the traumatic events occurred to a close family member or close friend; cases of actual or threatened death must have been violent or accidental
experiencing repeated or extreme exposure to aversive details of the traumatic events (Examples are first responders collecting human remains; police officers repeatedly exposed to details of child abuse). Note: This does not apply to exposure through electronic media, television, movies, or pictures, unless exposure is work-related.
The presence of one or more of the following:

spontaneous or cued recurrent, involuntary, and intrusive distressing memories of the traumatic events (Note: In children repetitive play may occur in which themes or aspects of the traumatic events are expressed.)
recurrent distressing dreams in which the content or affect (i.e. feeling) of the dream is related to the events (Note: In children there may be frightening dreams without recognizable content.)
flashbacks or other dissociative reactions in which the individual feels or acts as if the traumatic events are recurring (Note: In children trauma-specific reenactment may occur in play.)
intense or prolonged psychological distress at exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic events
physiological reactions to reminders of the traumatic events
Persistent avoidance of distressing memories, thoughts, or feelings about or closely associated with the traumatic events or of external reminders (i.e., people, places, conversations, activities, objects, situations)

Two or more of the following:

inability to remember an important aspect of the traumatic events (not due to head injury, alcohol, or drugs)
persistent and exaggerated negative beliefs or expectations about oneself, others, or the world (e.g., “I am bad,” “No one can be trusted,” "The world is completely dangerous").

persistent, distorted blame of self or others about the cause or consequences of the traumatic events
persistent fear, horror, anger, guilt, or shame
markedly diminished interest or participation in significant activities
feelings of detachment or estrangement from others
persistent inability to experience positive emotions
Two or more of the following marked changes in arousal and reactivity:

irritable or aggressive behavior
reckless or self-destructive behavior
hypervigilance
exaggerated startle response
problems with concentration
difficulty falling or staying asleep or restless sleep
Also, clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning not attributed to the direct physiological effects of medication, drugs, or alcohol or another medical condition, such as traumatic brain injury.”

Note the cognitive and behavioural aspects in the final paragraph which may be interpreted by others as selfishness, unpleasantness, “work shyness” or hedonism. Note also the lack of trust of others.

PTSD is a very complex issue, it is difficult to treat, it’s no surprise that hosts are finding it very difficult to manage along with potential anxiety and depression of their guests. This is why the programme is ill conceived. These people need proper support and treatment, it doesn’t matter how kind you are- it doesn’t make up for good training in this area of mental health. What people can do is at least understand it’s unlikely to be intentional when people don’t behave “well”, people with PTSD aren’t taking the piss- even if that’s what it looks like sometimes.

Ah. So 'women in Ukraine' are actually honorary BAME really, and shouldn't mix with Us Proper White People 'cos they are far too different..

You need to have a conversation with her about the cost of living and the future.

Utility costs have doubled. You cannot afford to give her the £150 a month any more.

You also need her to start looking for somewhere new to live asap to give her plenty of time. She will not be eligible for any kind of benefits as a stay at home Mum with $10,000 in the bank. Either her husband will have to pay rent or she will have to get a job. This is the reality of life.

You were very kind, but you need your life back. Your kids deserve their home back. Also, a lot of Ukrainians we have got to know in the last 6 months are going home. Some back to their own homes, some to make new lives for themselves in the west of Ukraine, where their children can have a Ukrainian education. It sounds like she might actually be happier with that option.

OP, it is really hard. We have a family of 3 staying with us & my kids are older, but there is no question it is a big upheaval.

Our guests are lovely but it's still easy for resentment to build up, on both sides. This is completely normal. I do have to keep reminding myself of the monumentally awful situation they have left behind and which continues to affect their immediate family back in Ukraine which must be a constant worry.

The government guidance says it is fine to ask your guests to contribute to living expenses, and I think you must decide how long you want them to stay, discuss it and help them move on. I keep reading how hard it is for Ukrainians to find places to rent.

We have kept the £350 payment ourselves. I haven't done the maths but I don't think it covers all our additional costs - dishwasher is often on twice a day, and I am buying most of the food basics like milk, eggs, flour, oats, coffee, cheese, vegetables etc although they buy the stuff they like that we would not eat.

The hardest thing for me has been the Mum really wants to be able to go back as soon as possible. So she doesn't want to plan ahead. She is a strong, capable, independent woman, like me, so I have to be very careful not to tell her what I think she should do or hassle her to do things.

OP what would you do if you were in her shoes? You seem resentful that she is a SAHP. If she has no qualifications, or has never worked, do you think she can just get her act together and work in a different country with different language in 2 months? These people are fleeing war ffs. Wasnt the govt funding meant to help ou with washing powder, sundries and food? Why do you expect her to get it all? 10K savings is nothing. You ae not fit for doing helping out. Your mindset is completely different and so are your expectations. Your kids are picking up on your resentment and now they are unhappy. Give them notice and let them go

I thought hosts are getting £350 per month thank you gifts? Doesn’t that cover their electricity, washing powder, loo roll?

Instead of ‘pledging’ half the TY gift to her, just cover the loo roll out of the £350pm you’re getting.

I don’t understand why people sign up for things without understanding what’s involved.

I knew I couldn’t have anyone in my home, Ukrainian, Brit or anyone) so didn’t even look into this scheme.

My mum has adult grandkids visiting for a few months and she at the end of her tether with them even though she can make them muck in.

Absolutely agree with you @MargotChateau

First you could say due to the hike in food prices, utilities etc.. you can no longer do the 50/50 share of the £350.
Can she rent in the same school area so her daughter doesn’t have to move schools? Lots of teens where I live travel by train to school and college daily’s it’s not unreasonable to expect her to travel to school.
And put a firm limit on her stay. January is more than reasonable. Say your work will change after Xmas, be vague.

I don’t know any refugees (and I know a few) that would have turned down honest work.

She needs to be able to plan for a move out date. January latest, would be very reasonable - can you help assist with finding accom/reading the contracts etc. In her position, I'd be interested in sharing with a fellow countryman in the same position, to help keep costs down/moral support etc - Can you research if there's any mechanism for that or council advice/support to help them move on.

You've been very kind and generous with your support to date but it was always a stepping stone, not forever.

@RedToothBrush have you read this? Is your diagnosis still “cunty fuckers”? Or could it be that a few posts from someone who is clearly potentially motivated to make her guest seem unreasonable and undeserving isn’t enough to make this judgement about this woman. Is it possible judging her behaviour is outside your area of expertise? If so might be worth reigning in the contemptuous language.

Your language is is awful. it’s doesn’t really matter that you merrily use it against everyone, the truth is the pile on and dehumanisation of this Ukrainian woman might well have implications for how other refugees get treated given this is a public forum with lots of traffic. It risks normalising contempt for them, justifying contempt for them even, when what they need is more compassion, not less.

I have read. I do still think.

You aren't aware of some of the situations I am.

HTH

@Honeysuckle9 cant you give the poor refugee woman time? Would you be able to hit the ground running? these people have fled a war zone, lost their home and all their possessions. And we have OP here resenting her for hot getting dishwasher tablets and not getting off her arse to find a job and eyeing her 10K savings. Which will not go far!!

The woman pays for food for herself and her daughter.

Directly linked to this we are hosting two 26 year old women & have been since April. One is working remotely and the other is looking for a job but hasn’t been successful so far. I’m just trying to be encouraging and letting her know of any opportunities I see. They are both working hard on improving their English. Realistically it’s going to take time for them to adjust to being here and it isn’t all that easy to get used to sharing. In the end if you can’t cope as you are incompatible or just because it’s a lot harder than expected or circumstances change it’s not at all unreasonable to set an end date with reasonable notice but I really wish people doing this would stop feeling the need to make the refugees living with them out to be bad in some way to justify the decision to stop being a sponsor.

Just to say again, it's not 10k savings, it's 8k kept in US dollars. So, once you have paid a deposit on a house and the first months rent, there would be less than 6k left. To build an entire life with that, especially if something happens to her husband (he's not currently called up so my guess is he does some either military or essential IT job). I wouldn't feel secure about losing everything and starting again with 8k.

I don't blame the OP though, I wouldn't want someone in my home for 6 months, and I knew that which is why I didn't sign up.

I think the whole thing was ill-conceived, people need more specialist structured help than what is offered, and feeling kindly towards refugees melts away when the reality of living with strangers with teenagers hits, and I don't blame anyone for that. This programme was wrong from the start and the OP is now shouldering that.

OP, I would do the six months for your own feeling/your kids feelings, and get talking to your guests about what happens after that. Do not agree to next year's GCSE's for sure if that doesn't suit you.

@UnshakenNeedsStirring I have someone living with me for the past 4 months and I think that unfortunately when you are in their awful situation you need to start planning to support yourself as soon as possible.

Most hosts I speak to can do 6 months but no more so it is imperative that the Ukrainians plan past this.

In an ideal world, you and everyone else on this topic would take turns and each person would do 6 months hosting and it wouldn’t become too onerous on families.

But that’s not what is happening, the few that have stepped up and now being judged for putting.a 6 month limit. I think that’s unfair

I don't think the refugee mum is doing anything wrong though, she's only been with the OP three months, is working (not enough for the OP but presumably picking up part-time/shifts), presumably learning English enough to be able to work, supporting her daughter starting again in a whole new education system, paying for food. I'm not sure full-time working after such a short time is going to be feasible, I know if I were displaced from my home and trying to keep my kids going in the Ukraine, I probably wouldn't be working f/t at this point, just trying to survive day to day and possibly with anxiety/depression (plenty of people who are NOT refugees have that). Once some stability has been achieved, then it would be more possible- esp if they are going to have to move areas, rents are hard to obtain, GCSE disruption again.

The Op receives £350 a month which would include toiletries and if it doesn't, that should be discussed (what this payment is going towards, esp with energy bills rising).

I think it’s VERY messed up that a couple with 10 grand in savings and a husband in work can mooch off a single mother like this!

I really appreciate everyone that's taken a few minutes of their time to write in. I have read each response and I will read them again.

I want to address issues well in a safe space here, BEFORE things come to a head. There are situations happening right now where Ukrainians are forcibly being made homeless by their UK hosts with very little notice, if at all.

I am in month 3 of hosting. Not to drip feed but I did mention I have two teens and the elder one is heading into Year 10 GCSEs. Thus, we have 3 teens in the house. They don't get on, they avoid each other, give each other dirty looks and refuse to cooperate. That in itself is something I can cope with even though its not a healthy environment. Although we parent our children separately, we are both are on the same page about behaviour expectations etc which means which helps massively. My teens do need to learn to be sympathetic of other's plight. I am consciously very aware I haven't been as present of my children as I could have done in the past 3 months so this is one of the reasons why I've been feeling a bit put out.

Someone wrote an eloquent post about mismatched expectations and that sounds about right to me.

Where I have fallen short is that I've underestimated the time and effort in supporting the refugee beyond housing. I did expect to help them with Visa arrangements, paperwork with schooling, and doctor registrations etc.

What I didn't expect to have to do, is submit x3 separate school appeals due to lack of spaces, arrange interpreters at the doctors, help with additional hospital appointments, continued help with online banking as mother keeps forgetting her password details. On top of that, helping the parents understand the best path for schooling, school reports, GCSE subject matter choices, appointments to visit school head. I've spent hours and hours of my free time, literally a full time job in the evenings of the first month on top of my own full time job and family. It's the bleeding into the unpredictables that has actually exhausted me. Every morning at breakfast it turns into a mini English lesson as she wants to improve her communication skills and I've got into a habit of correcting her saying things and suggesting new vocab. Hard to do when you have two teens in the morning to get out of the door and you need to get into the zone for my own job at 09:00. The mother is very chatty - nervously chatty and I really think depressed. It's my own fault for wanting to help them - this breakfast issue is minor - before I get flamed! - but sometimes I come across abrupt as I really only have time to make a coffee and get to my desk

I could have said no to all this but where do you draw the line? What is essential and what is not? No to school appeals? No to hospital appointments? No to banking?? I went into this knowing it would be incredibly hard work, which it is. I don't regret helping them, and I would do this again for these 3 months. FYI -The £350 a month (that's £87.5 a week!) doesn't even come close to covering my time, bills, cost of household goods for x2 adults. We hosts are not in it for the money.

About the tinfoil, washing powder etc it's not about the cost , it's the intent and gesture. If the Ukrainian mother would have offered just once to buy for our household, I would have settled for that - just the once. But she's never offered and I think this has touched a nerve with me. Rather than bring it up, I'm going to decrease the amount I pledged originally. ( I said half of £350 was £150 when I meant £175 - I really did get an A in GCSE maths, believe be!).

The SAHM thing - if she wants to be a SAHM or be picky about jobs - then fine as pointed out by some poster. That's not my prerogative. I should remove emotion out of it, and remove my own code of conduct. It's not how I'd go about things but I'm not here to tell her what to do. My parents were Vietnamese refugees with nothing but the clothes on their backs and both parents worked really hard (employment wise). Still, I should not let my experience of being a refugee growing up in my parents home colour my views in helping my Ukrainian guest. She's a lovely mum and a nice person. It IS incredibly hard for me as the host, to have these hard conversations about finding jobs, moving out, leaving the safety net. Rent round here is expensive and for everyone 1 place, 8 people are looking. I've been told to forget about Social housing, it's just not realistic. How do you approach these conversations and avoid creating an atmosphere and tension, where she is ultimately being told she is needs to leave sooner than originally thought? I've only ever committed 6 months, with a 6 month review. I think she and I hoped we could make it to 12 but the more I think about it, the more unsustainable it is even with the best will in the world and willingness from both sides.

September will be month 5 - I was going to have my 6 month review in October with them but I think I will have it earlier. I think finding private housing is so challenging and a lot of work in itself that they need much longer than 3 months notice. I would like January to be a hard deadline. I really hope this doesn't deteriorate our relationship. I also feel that we are in this weird twilight where we both hoped we could become friends but actually, the power of the relationship is so heavily imbalanced that I don't know what kind of friendship will result after she leaves.

"I’m shocked by the number of people who think a woman who has fled from her war torn country, with her child, should part with her life savings to pay for dishwasher tablets, despite the fact the government are giving her host £350 per month to cover such costs.
We have no business offering to host refugees when culturally we are so selfish and inhospitable."

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If you're getting on ok, I think it's just a conversation you both need to sit down and have.

She may not understand your actual cost for washing powder, etc. even if she knows the price. It's hard to assess how affordable something is until you've worked + paid taxes and bills in the country. I imagine she thinks that you really don't mind.

As others said, she may not want to commit to a job or to spend her savings because of the huge sense of uncertainty. I also remember reading about (U.K.) people on UC who couldn't keep the jobs they were offered because of being treated unfairly, only offered unsuitable hours, bullied at work, etc. Has she been talking to you about what's gone wrong?

I have to say being a SAHM is very rare in ex communist countries. Working mums was/ is the norm and often not even with the option to go part time. I was surprised to read that bit. May be she comes from a wealthy background, has chronic conditions she's not willing to discuss,...?! What is your opinion on SAHMums in general? Have you talked about your dad to her to share his experience of being a refugee?

And about the savings. That's really not much when you don't know if you'll have a house to return to. It's 7-9 months rent + deposit, isn't it.

I'd sit down and talk about the kids too - do they spend time together? If not, than surely there is not much to disagree on.