To think there is little incentive to work hard in the UK

[BeachTree]

Context. 30's, no kids, single, work full time.

Just a bit disheartened. I have never claimed benefits, or any type of support, I work hard to make sure I can support myself (Not disputing those who genuinely require benefits/support) I have always paid all my taxes, and national insurance. I expect by the time I reach retirement age, the 'state pension' may look very different to what it does now and may not be available despite having paid in my whole life.

I feel sometimes that I pay so much into the 'system' and get very little return and don't 'take' from it, whereas there are many people claiming every benefit possible, and constantly 'taking' from the system they don't pay into. There are so many ways to extract money from the system but only for those who don't work full time. I know someone who worked for about 1 or 2 year in late teens in the UK, then worked abroad for a number of years, during this time did not keep up with national insurance payments and obviously not paying UK tax as no in the country, also didn't pay tax in the country they resided in. Returned to England to have a baby on the NHS, now residing back in England, claiming benefits as a single parent for 2+ years, gets assistance with rent council tax etc despite having paid next to nothing in to the system. I cannot compute how this is fair.

For example the cost of living payment, people who claim benefits will get £650, where as those who work and do not claim benefits will get £400. The cost of living crisis affects all of us - perhaps more so the people who work their socks off and aren't 'entitled' to 'support' The system is backwards and not in favour of people who work full time to support our ridiculous benefit system. So many examples - ie. people get help with rent, council tax, working tax credits etc etc etc - however those who work get zero, zilch.

AIBU?

HowToMoveForwards And most businesses in the town in which I live struggle to find employees because people can't be bothered working
hahahahaha! Have you been living under a rock? There is a staffing shortage right across the UK right now. Maybe have a bit of a think why that might be? I would hint that for the most part, it is not because people can be bothered working.

Of course I've "had a think" about why this is. As my post explained, the children (read early twenties) of friends and acquaintancies who might fill these jobs simply don't work. They either do college courses locally part time, do the occasional bit of part time work informally or do nothing and are subsidised by their parents. The rare one does an apprenticeship but mainly they are subsidised by their parents and there is a lack of motivated young people with the discipline and reliability to work full time. Its probably a particularly bad town for this as it not adjacent to a nearby city and a lot of the more motivated people will have moved to the cities for work. So, no I think its you that has been living under a rock. As I also said, low salaries are also a problem in the UK (did you even bother to read my post before coming out with the stereotypes?) but if its your first job or you have no record of regular employment in your twenties, then like everyone else in that situation, you do have to take low paid work first and then work your way up.

Yes exactly that

Also the people who pretend they are single therefore claiming this benefit then have a partner earning who lives with them but not declared, that is really wrong

I get your point.

My brother claims Universal credit purely to avoid paying child support because he's an absolute cretin. He works cash in hand jobs. He got the full payment which he has blown on drink and drugs.
I work my arse off full time to pay my bills and nursery fees, my outgoings have rocketed and we have actually started to get into debt with it. We wont get the help he does.

From my many years of work in criminal justice and drug intervention, I agree.

Quite.

My husband is going through the process at the moment and I absolutely do not believe that anybody happens to know somebody "getting full PIP" when they aren't entitled to it. It's just the usual bullshit spaffed on threads like this.

@Deguster - you are, of course, part of the problem from the OP’s perspective, having left the UK, paid low to no tax elsewhere for years, then come back to use the state schools here. As for the Middle East, I don’t think many people in the UK would want to replicate the systems of government there, and yes, some middle eastern countries offer high wages and low to zero tax for some, but there is a massive underbelly of exploited workers propping that up who have no real rights or voice. Those complaining about taxation don’t seem to realise lower tax will not significantly increase their share of the cake, as they don’t earn enough to pay vast sums in tax in the first place, it will just lower still further the quality of services they have access to and increase the gap between themselves and those who really benefit from low taxation, namely those who are already wealthy.

Hah. I see what you’re getting at. One of them perhaps, but not the other two! 😂

@Walkaround I am in no way suggesting that we emulate the systems of government in the ME - no idea how you got that from my post. The point is that there are job opportunities in countries that offer lower tax, and those opportunities enable savings to be made if you are at a stage in life where the tax burden feels unfair.

I am a high earner but I use state schools because my DS has additional needs and would not be accepted in a prep. He was born in the UK and is "allowed" to do so!

I do think the UK has the worst of all worlds in some ways. A tax burden that feels high - perhaps because wages are low and we do not have the same employment protection as in (say) France - but services that are overwhelmingly shit and failing, like the NHS. I would perhaps feel optimistic about DH and I (both HR taxpayers) putting even more into the pot if I believed it wouldn't just be spaffed away by whatever idiots are in charge at the time.

I worked for the NHS (admin role). It cost me more per hour to put my 2 into wraparound care than I got paid per hour. Yes it was my choice to have 2 children but I couldn't foresee my ex husband being an abusing cunt once I had those children.

Things are slightly different now I've remarried but it was literally costing me money to work without tax credits. Tell me again how that is fair?

When you have a SiL like mine, who was born here but from the age of 20 to 35 lived abroad, so never paid taxes/NI for 15 years into the UK system, comes back to live here with my 'D'B and the first thing she does when she touches ground at the airport? Phones the relevant department to start claiming benefits.

Claiming benefits from a system she hadn't contributed to in 15 years. She got plenty of benefits and has lived off them very nicely thank you very much despite being perfectly healthy and able to work full time. Sold her property abroad and now has £££ stuffed away in premium bonds etc. (God knows how she's managed it over the years but her mother used to work for DWP so knows every single loop hole.)

My eldest DC is working his placement year for his degree and receiving a salary from which he will pay tax and knowing that his NI/taxes will be going towards her fucking pension pot when she starts claiming that too.

and she's an evil fucking bitch to boot too.

For me the incentive is that I never have to deal with those arseholes at HMRC the implement the universal credit system, that’s all the incentive I need to stay well away from it.

I literally could not cope with somebody else having the control over my finances day in day out, never knowing one moment to the next whether you’re going to be penalised.

You know, I'm getting sick and tired of seeing this sort of shit.

I looked on entitledto. If myself and my husband were both out of work, ourselves, and our two children would come under the benefit cap. I believe the amount entitledto said we would get a month is £1400. Sounds like a huge chunk doesn't it?
Except that rent on our home is £1000 a month, and £300 under market value as it is.

No fucking idea how we would get by on £400 a month. Not when the electric bill is £200, water is £50. Already seems like it would be a pretty meagre existence. Having a family to sustain on £150 for a month, food would be hard enough, let alone clothes, nowhere for entertainment, furniture replacements, Internet, birthdays or Christmases, no holidays.

But yeah, you moan on about benefit claimants and them having it all.

You get the benefit of living in a safe country where violent crime is rare

Really? Maybe in small towns and villages but in London violent crime is not rare. There are robberies, shootings and mugging the whole time.

@CbaThinkingOfAUsername
So the differential might be that you're in Scotland? Are benefits really thousands of pounds higher in Scotland than in the rest of the country?

Minus the housing element I'm getting £600 in England as a single mother (and it will go down to £400 if I don't up my own earnings within the next couple of months) . With a cheap rent like yours my overall benefit payment would be just over £900.

Yeah, I'd love to have £1300 left over AFTER the rent and council tax!! It's £380 + child benefit in reality.

I was replying to a PP's claim that everyone on benefits has a genuine need for them. I don't think being too lazy to work equates to a genuine need. And I referred to my own family to demonstrate that I had definite knowledge of there not being a genuine need, and that I was just stereotyping all people on benefits.

The government obviously needs to ensure that children are fed and clothed and I don't disagree with that, but in my opinion more could and should be done to make people work if they are able to.

Poor you. You've always been well enough to work and had a job that pays enough to financially support yourself.

"Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"

@Barbadossunset it's all relative. Sure these things occur but compared to huge swathes of the world - including where my family is posted to right now - the UK is extremely safe and the amount of thought you have to give to how safe it is to walk down the street is much less. I never fully appreciated the freedom of it before I lived another way. And no, I definitely didn't only live in nice, happy parts of the UK before!

I wish the phrase "free money" - which I see a lot on these threads - could just be banned. It's a stupid phrase and elides the fact that this money is just about enough to prevent starvation and not enough, in many cases, to prevent abject deprivation.

So many examples - ie. people get help with rent, council tax, working tax credits etc etc etc - however those who work get zero, zilch

But why would you get help if you don't need it? I'm sure your life is difficult, but if you're earning enough to not get any low income support then you don't need help in the way the people you describe do.

People who make this argument sound incredibly childish to me. It's not like mum comes home with a bag of sweets and every kid should get one. It's based on need, not everyone deserving a turn to get something free.

Of course there's cheats. There's cheats at the millionaire and billionaire levels too, causing far more damage, they just look more respectable. If you want to be eaten up by the injustice of something, try that instead.

But you need to think less about what everyone else is getting and just concentrate on yourself.

It kind of proves OPs point. You can work your arse off and still be poor, so why bother?

@FreyaStorm opposite - I am middle class- ish, but have had to live on benefits before. Know many people who have been on them. Also know a couple of cheats - but mostly, I know it's no fucking holiday being on benefits.

You can have a secure tenancy from a housing association at market rate without being on benefits. I've done it. But didn't stay very long because the houses (which you expect people to be so grateful for) were in such a dicey spot, which is pretty standard in my part of the country for council/ HA houses now that the system has been decimated by right to buy and underfunding.

The only way to get the high rate of pip and be entitled to join the motability scheme if you are assessed. To do that you have to have significant life changing disabilities. if shes still on dla and waiting to be changed to pip, she has a shock coming her way very soon.
If she is entitled to the mobility element of pip she can use it for whatever car she wants to that is on the scheme.

I have never been on a benefit thread before. I live in a place where what would normally be minimum wage you get paid between 12 to 20 pounds and hour.
This is because there are not many people here to serve the tourist trade( which is all year here) so employers pay this to keep people. Many people have two jobs. Employers are desperate to get staff. I absolutely know from sitting in on informal.interviews which.are basically a chat and when can you start that applicants seeking to show that they have applied for jobs in order to keep.benefits show they have applied for the job , but either dont turn up or make no effort in the chat at all . They dont want the job are playing the game. My manager has has so much time wasted by these individual s.

Its absolutely true .

OK, so who is supposed to do the low-paying jobs? Someone has to. And for that reason the min wage needs to rise to a level where people can live in at least a modest level of comfort, without the need for state top-ups.

@Deguster - I didn’t get from your post that we should emulate the Middle East. I was merely pointing out that your post would rile the OP as they expressly complained about someone who worked overseas, then came back and claimed benefits, etc, etc. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone with children of school age who lives in the UK using UK state schools for their children.

I do agree that the UK is currently getting it badly wrong and working hard to achieve the worst of all worlds. It’s feels like the country has been doing precisely the wrong thing at precisely the wrong time for years - running down public services, then spending large amounts on building them up, then wasting any gains by dramatically underfunding again and wasting what money actually is available on changes that improve nothing as they are purely ideological, not evidence based. This government just seems intent on promising a lot but actually attempting to evade all responsibility for anything. It’s always local councils that are at fault, or inefficiencies that are totally not the responsibility of the politicians who pushed through the changes, or previous governments, or the rest of the world, never badly thought out government changes or fantastical promises on vastly reduced budgets that are to be carried out by people who are being asked to do things they don’t understand and don’t have the capacity to do anyway, all asked for by politicians who don’t have a clue what they are talking about…

I’ve relied on benefits and I’ve also earned over 60k per year. Much rather have the latter. But yes you’re right, there’s a lot of people out there who don’t use benefits for what it’s intended, to help out when times are hard, for many it’s a life style choice.