"You're in administration are you?"

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

Waiting for a train and a guy started chatting to me to pass the time. Told me he had a 51 year old son so he must be in his 70s. When he discovered I work at a university he asked me the question in the subject line.

I asked him what made him say that and he just shrugged. I didn't say so, but I suspect it's because I'm a woman and also his generation.

Unreasonable to be wryly amused/slightly miffed? Not the first time it's happened and always men that say it.

Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with working in administration either btw.

Surely that was a statistically accurate guess by the Uber driver?

I've done a quick bit of googling for statistics to try and estimate this. I have that 50% of doctors are female, 90% of nurses are female, and just over 2 to 1 ratio of nurse to doctors. Based on that, I reckon for every 100 people who are either doctors or nurses (so ignoring other jobs) there will be 15 female doctors and 63 nurses. (There will be 15 male doctors and 7 male nurses.)

So if the worker is a women, doing one of those jobs, the probability that she's a nurse is 63/(63+15) = 80%.

If the worker is a man, the probability he's a nurse is 7/(7+15) = 32%.

there was a whole thing with Dr Jill Biden not being afforded her title in the press

Isn't the omission because she's not being mentioned in relation to her work, but because of who she's married to?

I've googled two male (medical) doctors I can think of, who are in the public eye, and neither of them are referred to as Dr usually. Though neither are actually working as doctors, not sure if that makes a difference. Also not sure if matters if we are talking about medical doctors as opposed to academics.

The presumption is wrong- reasonable to assume you might not be a lecturer, but there are many other roles.

Reminds me of my mum's OU graduation, my grandmother then in her late 70s came along and was chatting to a couple of people there. Asked one of them what they did at the OU. He was the vice-chancellor.

This is all still about women trying to fit into a world of men - wanting to be respected for their success in a man’s world. We apparently still have the same old hierarchies: you must be offended if anyone thinks you might be a mere nurse, carer or administrator; you must be respected if you are a doctor or CEO; you should be listened to with more respect if you are a doctor; you should expect to be sidelined if you are “only an administrator” (even though you have no idea what “administration” really means, but obviously even in a conversation with an apparently harmless and powerless old man, it must be an offensively lowly, virtually pointless and utterly powerless position that is being envisaged). All this is doing is crystallising prejudice against particular roles in society and buying into a male notion of what is a valuable skill set. Taking offence at an assumption that someone might be an administrator, rather than simply explaining you actually have a different role, is buying right into the notion that to be an administrator is to be unimportant, boring and irrelevant.

Wasn't there an article saying she shouldn't use Dr as a title because she wasn't a real doctor because she was a doctor of education?

"Remember, the use of "administrator" took off because the term "secretary" had picked up low-status connotations. (Which I find odd, as I think of a secretary as being a right-hand-woman in her own office, whereas admin reminds me of dreary temping jobs, but there you go)."

Yes. In the EU institutions administrator is the executive grade, very difficult to get into. It makes me laugh now that this is what supporting roles are now called.

The other thing that made me laugh is a friend going 'she's really important now: office manager'. In my sector, office manager is right at the bottom. (I appreciate it can be senior admin in larger places).

@Walkaround I agree with this entirely

Brilliantly put!

There's also the assumption that admin is an easy job that anyone can do. Most admin jobs these days aren't yet so many people seem to look down on the role. I suspect a lot of people in the roles above would have the shock of their life if they had to do that type of work for any length of time. Either that or they would do it very badly.

I don't read this as someone taking offence at being called an administrator. Surely the issue is with sex based stereotypes?

Assuming women are administrators and men are academics isn't about being offended at being called an administrator it's about challenging unconscious biases.

A thread last night was asking why an academic might want to speak to a student before the course starts. The first response told to OP to ask him .......

There is also an unconscious bias against the roles themselves that some women refuse to acknowledge when they reinforce the bias by taking offence…

There is also an unconscious bias against the roles themselves that some women refuse to acknowledge when they reinforce the bias by taking offence…

I'm not offended by people thinking I'm an administrator ( I worked in university professional services for years) but I'm offended by the assumption that I'm not an academic because I'm a woman.

My DH works in professional services and I'm
an academic. Guess who people assume is the academic?Guess who people are happy to refer to as Dr while people ignore my title and insist on Mrs?

"Better" is generally higher paid or more educated. No point pretending otherwise. Not a better person but undeniably a better job.

Yes, indeed.

I used to be an academic, and worked 7-1 around childcare. One day as I was leaving the house at about 6.15 I bumped into a neighbour who said, "Oh, you've got a wee job then have you?"

I thought, I bet he thinks I'm a cleaner! I don't look down on cleaners (or anyone, come to that), but I did feel miffed and his assumption about a "wee job" annoyed me. If he'd seen my husband leave the house at that time he'd presumably have though, "Oh, he's got a long commute to his important job."

My DH works in professional services and I'm
an academic. Guess who people assume is the academic?Guess who people are happy to refer to as Dr while people ignore my title and insist on Mrs?

yep. Anything referring to “dr really” is automatically DH.

Also when people refuse to use Dr and insist on Mrs. women in particular who seem to think I’m minimising their wife status by refusing to use it.

No he didn't ask me what I did. He asked me where I worked in terms of how long it took me to walk to and from the train station and workplace.

Brilliant post 👏🏼 👏🏼 👏🏼

I thought we might work at the same place from your description but we have more than one university in the city I work at.

@SnackSizeRaisin more than two I meant to say!

I'm amazed that so many people - especially women - don't get why this is sexist and infuriating.

Why didn't he just ask 'what do you do?' Instead of assuming?!

@brookstar I don't read this as someone taking offence at being called an administrator. Surely the issue is with sex based stereotypes?

And you'd be perfectly correct. I can't believe people didn't understand that.

I'm amazed that so many people - especially women - don't get why this is sexist and infuriating.

Me too!

I couldn’t agree more and would like to see some of the posters who have taken offence at the notion that they might be a lowly administrator do my role for the day. They wouldn’t last 5 minutes 😂 oh and I’m educated, paid v well and respected.

Some people really do need to get over themselves 🙄

Question: Where is it you work
Answer: University X, Y building

If I'd told him exactly what I did in answer to that and given title I bet I'd have been accused of being smug and condescending to an old guy.

As it happens he asked me if I was in admin, I asked him why he thought that, he shrugged and then I said I teach (STEM subject). I didn't mention anything about the research side which would have no doubt been doubly smug.

He then asked me if I knew a guy called Graham who taught the same subject. In a school. I didn't!

Its just the Patriarchy talking.

couldn’t agree more and would like to see some of the posters who have taken offence at the notion that they might be a lowly administrator do my role for the day. They wouldn’t last 5 minutes 😂 oh and I’m educated, paid v well and respected.

Some people really do need to get over themselves 🙄

Who is taking offence at being called an administrator? If you think that's what people have issue with then you've misunderstood.