"You're in administration are you?"

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

Waiting for a train and a guy started chatting to me to pass the time. Told me he had a 51 year old son so he must be in his 70s. When he discovered I work at a university he asked me the question in the subject line.

I asked him what made him say that and he just shrugged. I didn't say so, but I suspect it's because I'm a woman and also his generation.

Unreasonable to be wryly amused/slightly miffed? Not the first time it's happened and always men that say it.

Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with working in administration either btw.

Then you work at a university with a very different grading system and pay scale to the one I do! Grade 8 doesn’t exist where I work for a start. After grade 7 it is individual contracts. The majority of bog standard lecturers are grade 4 on a pay scale of £37K-£43K. Exactly the same pay scale applies to administrators. The biggest difference is the pension scheme.

Btw, my assumption of someone of that generation is that they would call a secretary a secretary and would not assume an “administrator” would “take a letter.” My assumption of younger generations is that they leap to take offence at every opportunity. Assumptions are so much pointless fun…

Because women (especially young women) are always assumed to be in admin rather than academic roles

You'll often find you lose your title, which is something that doesn't happen to men. Very common in the media too. E.g., "Professor A (man), Professor B (man) and Miss C (who's also a professor) published research"

FIL thought that because I work in an office I'm somebody's 'seckiterry'. No, you sexist melt. I have a rather complex job that needs a lots of skills & knowledge

And you think secretaries don't need this?

I must admit I sometimes use this type of presumption to my advantage. I am a GP. Unfortunately when you tell people this, it often either triggers a rant about how hard it is to get an appointment at their practice, the state of the NHS or their health problem. None of which I have any control over and frankly don't want to listen to any more of it, getting quite enough at work. So I say 'I work at a GP practice' and they assume I'm admin and don't start on me.

My assumption of younger generations is that they leap to take offence at every opportunity. Assumptions are so much pointless fun…

These assumptions lead to systemic inequalities in the workplace for women (and for POC), which is more than a bit shit really.

I really don’t think it’s because you were a woman. You are putting that on the conversation yourself

thing is when I was at Uni years ago many of the lecturers were women-like 50/50 so I don't see it as a man's job nor would I assume people think that. Infact apart from stereotypical male jobs like construction or mechanics I don't think the general population assume jobs like lecturers are male dominated these days at all.

*Because women (especially young women) are always assumed to be in admin rather than academic roles

You'll often find you lose your title, which is something that doesn't happen to men. Very common in the media too. E.g., "Professor A (man), Professor B (man) and Miss C (who's also a professor) published research*

I wouldn't agree with this at all. And I've never seen that in any media report.

@SurfBox oh trust me you definitely lose your title as a female when you do media. I've done daily rounds of media over the last few months and it's shocking the number of times male academics are presented with full title plus publications whereas they just used my name.. .. I have also spoken about this with quite a few female producers and they all agree. There is certainly still an assumption that women are not credible or serious academics. Its infuriating. I

I don’t agree with it either. Nor all these bigoted women taking umbrage at being thought to be in administration, as though this holds them back in life. Seems to me it’s the women taking offence that are a massive part of the problem - looking down on a role themselves that should have more respect, as though you can only be respected if people think you have a “man’s role.”

The vile way you patronise a woman as ‘sweet cheeks’ tells me everything I need to know about you.

You think you’re coming across as world but you just sound like someone who tears down women to make yourself feel better.

You certainly have an attitude and it’s a sexist and shit one.

Yep it’s women that are the problem.

How dare women be annoyed that they are assumed to be nurses rather than doctors or surgeons.

How dare corporate female staff be annoyed at being asked to make coffee by a new male staff member.

How dare a woman be assumed to be administrative staff.

Yee, most definitely, the problem is women taking offence.

As a union shop steward/branch officer at 18 in the very early 1980s, there were some...interesting...comments the moment a great many people clapped eyes on me. I could have been the reincarnation of Rosa Luxembourg for all they knew, but assumptions were usual.

A notable exception was a man over official retirement age, who was totally encouraging and utterly without misogyny in a way I've rarely experienced again. He was a veteran of the International Brigade in the Spanish Civil War. Great guy.

Before I turn in for the night, I hope some of the youngsters here realize they've been a bit of a 'toy' for the more wrinkled of skin, long toothed, yet not dead yet posters here.

Once you work it all out for yourself, rather than relying on law, etc for your rights, you'll see that it's the cultural shift, the fear of being alone that most women/humans have AND the animalistic tendencies that cause many women to attack/defend their own 'pride' rather than help a female 'escapee'.

And why shouldn't they? Just don't pretend it's anything else.

Ageist as well as sexist. There’s a surprise 🙄

This reminds me of when I was speaking with an acquaintance, and said my sister travels a lot with work. He asked "oh, is she an air hostess?". I just said no, and didn't think more about it.
Then another friend said to him "why didn't you ask if her sister is a pilot?!"

Then the sexism hit me, that he just assumed a relatively young woman would not be a pilot. My sister has a PhD and is senior in pharma.

Yep, that's me a 59 year old independent single woman, LP since birth of a now young adult autistic ds - now given the mantle of an ageist sexist.

Apparently I don't speak the right words to suit - maybe The Witchfinder Generals of MN can seek me out.....or I've turned into an Old Bat...squeak...

Years ago, I had a young guy come up to me while I was waiting for a bus by the university where I worked. "You at the university, then?" he asked. I said yes, I was. "Which department?" was his next question; I told him I was in Computing. His next question was the killer, though: "which course are you on?"... When I told him I was a lecturer, he said "oh, sorry, no offence!"

How is it unreasonable to think that a person at a bus stop outside a university is likely to be a student rather than a member of staff? Wouldn't that be a natural assumption? (Obviously not if you were in your 50s.)

I became aware a few months back that a long standing male acquaintance of mine thought I worked on the lowest rung of my profession. He was asking me about stuff I haven’t touched in 15 years. He works in a related profession so it wasn’t a misunderstanding. I probably earn more than him and we are of equal seniority in different companies. It was a bizarre conversation.

I’m sure that when this man asked “you’re in administration are you?” he wasn’t thinking she was the VC or Registrar.

TheHateIsNotGood "After decades of that, if I was a free-thinking man, I might ask such a question of a younger, but older woman. Not even for romantic reasons - jut to see if you were one of the few women left who still had their own faculties about them"

lord knows what you'll say about my faculties - was that pun intended btw - but I really don't know what you mean by this.

*I agree it's because you are female.

I was travelling with a male colleague far junior to me. A stewardess referred to him as "Sir" and me as "love"*

people really can’t see what’s wrong with this?? 😂😂😂.

mind you only have to read threads on here where women frown on other women using their “DR” title.

They should know their place and use “Mrs”, as their worth is higher based on their ability to land a man rather than education.

men of course are fine, as no one cares about their female support system, their value is in their job and status.

Bloody hell. I'd rather chat to an old man who thought I was a nurse or a secretary, than spend time with someone who speaks so callously about that generation "hopefully" dying out now.

Agree with this. Remember, the use of "administrator" took off because the term "secretary" had picked up low-status connotations. (Which I find odd, as I think of a secretary as being a right-hand-woman in her own office, whereas admin reminds me of dreary temping jobs, but there you go).

I'd guess an old man would be more likely to refer to admin as "clerical work" than administration.

All these words, really - administration, secretary, clerk - they can be used in very grand contexts (Master of Business Administration, Secretary of State, and historically there were high-status government Clerks), as well as very ordinary low-status ones.

I also agree with PPs that "I work at a university/school/hospital/court" sounds like support staff rather than lecturer/teacher/medic/judge. It's like saying "You wouldn't know what my job is, and I won't bore you with an explanation, but basically I support the workings of that place".