"You're in administration are you?"

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

Waiting for a train and a guy started chatting to me to pass the time. Told me he had a 51 year old son so he must be in his 70s. When he discovered I work at a university he asked me the question in the subject line.

I asked him what made him say that and he just shrugged. I didn't say so, but I suspect it's because I'm a woman and also his generation.

Unreasonable to be wryly amused/slightly miffed? Not the first time it's happened and always men that say it.

Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with working in administration either btw.

I’ve had a woman ask me that same thing, when I said I worked in a school (I’m an AHT).

I didn't say so, but I suspect it's because I'm a woman and also his generation.

I also read this as you saying you were the same generation as him.

To the OP of your reply, I also sit on a panel judging and approving applications for Associate, Fellow or Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy, so I'm well aware of the contribution of professional service staff and administrators as we are seeing more and more applications from this staff group.

I think my train station friend however equates "administration" with "take a letter Miss Jones" and doing a bit of filing and wouldn't have a clue about the actualities of university administration and management.

Badly worded on my part. It's been a long week.

Well @ImJustMadAboutSaffron , it was a little clumsy, but if he had phrased it as "Are you in Academia or Adminstration?" it would have been fine, because Administration is the catch-all term for most jobs that aren't Academia at a university, including IT Support, HR, Registry, etc, etc. And if he had said "Are you the University Secretary?" that would have been a reasonable compliment, because it is a high ranking position.

I'm a Senior Business Analyst, so technically "in University Administration" but I earn as much as a senior academic, and would be offended if anyone assumed otherwise!

I think my train station friend however equates "administration" with "take a letter Miss Jones" and doing a bit of filing and wouldn't have a clue about the actualities of university administration and management.

You may be under-estimating him due to your own prejudices. Did you ask him anything about himself?

I’m sorry but you are very wrong there. The majority a University’s senior management board will be made up of administrators; The Chief Operating Officer, the HR Director, the Digital Director, the University Secretary - not to mention the deputy VCs and the VC. Below them will the General Counsel, Director of Estates, IT etc. a large proportion of HE administrators will earn upward of £80k and have their own chartered qualifications. A PhD isn’t the be all and end all of being educated.

so many easily offended when someone is just making small talk.

I wouldn’t give half these scenarios a second thought.

Well to be fair everyone makes an important contribution from the cleaners to the VC. It's not saying that any one role is more useful or contributes more. But it's still ok to recognise that for the person actually doing the job, it's probably preferable to do something well paid and prestigious. Anyway I really wouldn't take this kind of comment personally. He was either a bit clueless or being deliberately provocative. Either way not worth worrying about.

There was a computer system exposed recently who wouldn't allow you to put in "Dr" for the title if the "female" was selected. It said "Error, title does not match gender"

Oh, it's extraordinary. I work for a university in business support. "Are you a lecturer"? Er no. "Oh are you in admin?"

"No"

"What do you do then?"

Executive Director of Resourcing and Operations: HR, Library, Estates, Academic Support.

Love it when it's a Prof saying it but usually it's a sales person on the phone. "Oh I'd so love to have time to speak with you, but I don't" yeah, but no but - I'm so sorry but I do not have time to engage - Good Bye.

I assumed he meant the uni you work for was insolvent.

I’ve got a feeling I read this whole exchange wrong though 🙂☺️

I don't think of university administrative roles as being lesser than academic ones. There are high and low level jobs in both sectors. I'm a mid career academic and I have a few friends who have moved from academic to professional services roles in recent years. One of them is now an administrator in a very responsible post earning more than me (and with considerably more job security).

If someone asked me if I worked in administration at the uni, I'd say 'unfortunately not'!

So are people only offended when the assumption is that they’re less qualified than they actually are? if someone took you for a chancellor for example, would that be equally offending or flattering?

But...there is the very real possibility that it was just an opening 'gambit' for conversation - lots of men have also lived through the earlier equalizing years and not all of them wielded clubs and dragged women around by their hair.

After decades of that, if I was a free-thinking man, I might ask such a question of a younger, but older woman. Not even for romantic reasons - jut to see if you were one of the few women left who still had their own faculties about them

As a teenager walking my dog I'd stop and chat to many elder men, none tried it on, they were interesting and I learned more from them than I knew at the time.

Ok well I work in a university and I know plenty of admin assistants who earn minimum wage or only slightly above. Obviously there are those at higher levels too but I would be surprised if the majority of admin roles were on 80k. Most are probably in the mid 20s or lower. Most admin staff obviously aren't on the board. Surely the whole point of the thread was that administrator is a lower role than academic? If the two are equal why would the erroneous assumption matter?

Reminds me of the time I ran into an old schoolfriend. Hadn't seen him in about 25 years. He asked if I worked and I said yes, I work at x University and before I could get out another word he responded with "oh well, nevermind. Something better might come up. You were always such a swot though - must be frustrating for you being around all those professors and geniuses"

This was around 5 years ago and I'm still perplexed by the exchange. No idea what kind of job he assumed for me but very interesting that he jumped straight to the idea that I'd have some sort of low status job.

For the record, I have one of those admin roles which is senior level and requires a considerable amount of skill, experience and professional qualification.

If I’m at a work event/reception and people ask me what I do, I say I work at X, if I don’t want to get into a long and drawn out conversation. Men all assume (or occasionally ask) that I’m a secretary. Or I might say that I work for the CEO, which again prompts the question “Oh are you his PA?” I’m the COO/number 2. One man was completely ignoring me and with his body language, trying to exclude me from the group, simultaneously asking if anyone had met the new no 2 from X. The CEO joined the group at this point, and said “Oh have you not met Pani Domu?” I said yes, we’d been introduced, but he didn’t seem interested in speaking to me…

There are people being extremely disingenuous on this thread. The wide eyed "What's your point?" posters.

@Lipsandlashes Obviously lots of people working on HE admin are well paid but as you said...HR, Digital, Estates, Fundraising, Marketing, etc....they don't ever say they work in a university. A close friend works in a uni in HR, only ever says she works in HR and then adds that she heads HR in quite a good uni. But the uni bit is the add on, her profession is HR. But if discussing locations, it would be weird if I said that I usually travel to uni X and the person assumes that am an admin.

I didn’t say the majority are on £80K or more. Equally the majority of academics are not on more than £40K. The academics that are on more than that are the ones in managerial roles that do very little teaching. I am a mid-level administrator and earn over £40K (ok I do work at a London Uni). Please do not be so ignorant to think that academics are better than, more well qualified or higher paid than the majority of administrators. And as for most admin roles being paid less than £20K or on apprentice wages, that is absolute bollocks. Our facilities staff (as grade 2) earn more than £25K

I asked him what made him say that and he just shrugged. I didn't say so, but I suspect it's because I'm a woman and also his generation.

Who knows why he said it but to casually assign people over 70 as being sexist makes you as prejudiced as you're accusing him of being. I'm in my 60s with family members and friends being in their late 60s and early 70s, probably of his generation. Not one of them believes that all lecturers, not even most lecturers, are men. Same way they don't think all doctors are men or all female medics must be nurses or indeed that all nurses are women. 🙄

It’s a bit ironic, to start a thread that makes all sorts of assumptions about someone of “that generation” that basically accuses “that generation” of making assumptions you don’t like. Maybe he just assumed that if you were an “academic” rather than an “administrator,” you would have said you were a professor or lecturer in a particular subject, rather than just saying you worked at the university, which does imply a more general, organisational role.

Fwiw, I think the country would be in far less of a shitty place if administrative roles received more respect and status. It’s not actually a common skill to be a really good, efficient administrator, and nothing works well without good administration, as demonstrated by every single government department, the NHS, and most British businesses dealing with customers - all phenomenally inefficient and chaotic, in my experience!

@Lipsandlashes I think most decent unis have very well qualified and renumerated professional staff, though lots of admin are on terrible wages. However, most academics in London are not on 40k though. Lecturers start at grade 8 and thats above 40k esp. with London weighting.