To be jealous my nursery teacher friend is on more than me

[Nurseryh]

I'm a nursery manager on £23,000; have a been in the job a couple of years. My friend is a nursery teacher and comparing wages, I'm shocked. After having a chat, we literally do the similar things. I feel a bit put off by it but I suppose I'm the stupid one for not qualifying.

What is it with the UK government and loving to have staff on the cheap? Why am I on so much less for literally the same job apart from the different name??

I often wonder why the teaching assistants in my children's school/nursery didn't just go do their degree and pgce once they knew that was what they wanted to do

They are two quite different jobs. It’s like wondering why nurses don’t just go and do a medical degree once they knew that’s what they wanted to do.

I agree daycare staff are incredibly poorly paid as are most childcare workers.

I think there are 2 different issues here.

1. Are you underpaid? Yes.
2. Do you do the same job? No.

This is the thing, you don’t fully appreciate what the job of the teacher is. You aren’t performing the role of teacher, although you might be doing some of the tasks a teacher performs….but you don’t really see the difference.

A teacher isn’t just responsible for delivering information, they are also responsible for the planning of tasks, understanding curriculum requirements, recording, reporting and feeding into the whole school assessment. In a school which has a pre-school and reception, the teacher is planning and delivering the full EYFS and in liklihood has a class of perhaps 30 children with a TA working with them.

A daycare nursery might still be offering some of the EYFS curriculum, but they are not offering a school experience. They are a childcare provider, who is offering the EYFS alongside. This might be planned by a qualified teacher and then delivered by a number of practitioners. The curriculum and resources and lesson plans might be planned by someone in a big organisation who doesn’t work into he setting, and then these resources and plans ar erased to the practitioners in various settings.

As a nursery manager, the job is different. It is about organising and running the practical side, as well as whatever interaction you have with children too. The teacher is not about managing staff and buildings etc. As a nursery manager you are providing childcare - perhaps 8-6pm. A teacher works school hours and the purpose is to educate and not to provide childcare. There will be overlaps but it’s different.

So you and friend don’t do the same job. Qualifications are required to be the teacher, because of the planning and holistic overall responsibility that the teacher has. A TA or nursery worker might deliver lessons in phonics or number or do lots of things gs the teacher does, but they probably don’t plan the timetable of the week and the half term and the term and the year so that all the requirements are met. They don’t plan differentiated work to meet different ability needs and adjust their lessons daily and minute by minute to reflect what their professional judgement, gained through training and experience tells them. It is this stuff that means they are paid more.

There is a basic principle here, that some jobs require qualifications. These qualifications mean the supply if staff is more limited. More limits on supply push wages higher. it’s basic economics and not about fairness or public and private sector. Your job has a bigger pool of people to draw in, so they can pay less. It really is as simple as that. They offered your job at the salary you get and they got you applying to do it. You were willing to do the job. People will not be willing to be teachers for your salary. They can get a teacher wage.

So don’t think if it all as being about unfairness or private sector and that the public sector is some kind of dream employer. It’s not about discrimination. Without doubt you are poorly paid and what you do deserves more but the basic economics of demand and supply determine your wage and set it where it is. If they couldn’t get anyone to do the job for your wage, they would have to rise it. But they can get people.

As others say, you could become a teacher if you have the pre requisite qualifications and can get a place. Make sure you’re clear about what it involves and know people are leaving in droves. There are different pressures and downsides to those you find in your job…it’s not always easy to say which jobs are worse or more pressured or whatever, because they differ.

And ge rover the green eyed monster. Your friend earns more than you. There will always be people who earn more. Sometimes you’ll think you work harder or they have an easier life. Things are often more complex, but sometimes they aren’t and actually they do have an easier time. If that’s the case, you can always investigate and you can change job if you want to and are able. That’s the thing to do instead of being jealous.

Teach First are currently paying £20k for the training year, OP. Not a big difference if you can manage the slight drop for a year. Guaranteed QTS year in your training school too, with an imediate, and decent, pay rise for second year.

I just had to abruptly leave the course after a family calamity, but the initial training was hugely enjoyable too. Capitalist free market means you'll always be paid like crap in a private nursery - so exit sharply. Particularly as a training wage is pretty much what you're being paid anway.

My relative used to work in a private nursery and always said how she didn’t think it was fair that I earn more when we do the same job (I’m a teacher).
She then did a PGCE and works in early years and said she could see the difference. When planning an activity she knew how to have clear goals differentiate it appropriately compared to her previous role. So whilst she was doing the same job and the same hours and tasks, the intricate details were a higher quality after her PGCE.

Depending on what you’ve done before, you can do the assessment only route to QTS. I know someone who did this for ages 3-7. They had a prior degree though.

Definitely apply for roles in schools if that's what you want to do. My SIL was a nursery nurse and got a job in a school where they paid for her degree to be a KS1 teacher. Now she's the nursery teacher. But it's taken her 5/6 years I think.

£23k for a nursery manager is low, here in the midlands the senior room leaders are on that

And no, it won't be phased out, why would they pay a nursery teacher when they can get nursery workers on the cheap; in the same way schools aren't phasing out HLTAs or cover supervisors

@Nurseryh
Well yes why indeed, it’s a lot of difference in money, that’s what I’m saying - but many places are doing just that, they are splashing extra cash on a nursery teacher so it must have some value to them. I don’t know what that value is, that’s what I’m asking.

I do the same job as my qualified teacher colleague in regards to teaching but our pay is very different. I'm a L5 in childcare and also a deputy and Senco plus all the CPD training. Childcare qualifications don't hold the same respect as teaching qualifications even though significant training and experience go into the other qualifications.

I disagree completely. You are expected to do the same job you get the same pay.

Its then up your union to argue why only you should be able to do that job.

@Tumbleweed101 I agree that childcare qualifications are not properly recognised but I doubt you are doing the same job- usually qualified early years teachers have a lot more to do in regards if paperwork, assessing levels and development, transition to reception etc. Senco roles usually are taken on by support staff in school and educational settings, also child protection etc because teaching staff do not have capacity/ cannot be regularly pulled away from teaching to deal with these issues and attend meeting etc. I do not dispute that childcare roles are skilled, I work within a local authority and the childcare settings attached to our children's centres require highly skilled staff and most have decades of experience and a high level of qualification. However a qualified, early years teacher is a totally different role. Same with SALT, OH and other roles working within early years provision.

Whereas I agree that people who have had to get A levels and then a degree to even be able to apply for their job ought to be paid more than those that could have started on an apprenticeship at 16, or, as very least will have started earning at 18, I voted YANBU because the Nursery Manager in a PVI actually does a LOT MORE than a mainscale teacher, and it is wrong that that isn't recognised.
As well as doing all the language development, EYFS curriculum, special needs identification, intervention, and referrals, difficult conversations, and of course the being full on with the children all day, a PVI Manager also

• Has to be au fait with employment law .....advertising , shortlisting and interviewing staff / Safer recruiting guidelines


• All the OFSTED regulation


• Funding rules


• Arrange staff rotas including AL, sick leave, managing cover etc


• Deal with all staff grievances and morale


• Supervisions


• Be responsible for the feeding of all the children - whether that is hiring a cook....or using staff on a rota and ensuring all food hygiene regulations are followed


• Risk Assessments


• Staff training


• Budgets


• Headcounts and all the paperwork around that

None of which I had to deal with as a young teacher. Only some of which I ever dealt with once taking on management roles. A Nursery Manager should be comparing themselves with the HEAD Teacher, not an NQT.

I didn’t know you could study for a degree in BSL.

can you point me to where you did this degree, OP?

That would sound fair. I’m more worried classes are increasingly being lead by unqualified teachers. I think the difference needs to be maintained so the question for me is why is there so little difference in the jobs in EY? Maybe everyone should be helped to gain QTS if they’re class-leads? Get rid of the pay gap that way?

Nothing to do with private sector. If you worked in the public sector you’d be paid the same as you are now. Childcare providers profit from appallingly low wages. She did a-levels, a degree and post grad training. Also two more years of on the job training. This is why she is paid more than you and has a better pension. Childcare providers make huge profits for their shareholders because they exploit workers.
Get qualified. It will be a few years stress for years more money and pension.
I did my teaching degree over 25 years ago and my friend did nursery nurse training. She earns £24,000 and I’m on £45,000. She just took the decision at 17 she didn’t want to stay in education too long and subsequently her pay is so low. It’s why what you do at 17/18 is so important.
Do a part time degree. My mums friend qualified as a teacher at 32 when her husband left her and she has just retired.

You did your degree in the wrong thing and started working in the wrong sector if you want to earn a decent salary. Didn't you do any research before starting on this path? Now you're feeling dissatisfied you have two choices - look for work in the private sector that pays more or retrain.

it does sound as if there is very little difference in your jobs. She is being paid more because her skills and knowledge are more highly prized by society - she knows more about child development than you do because she studied it for longer and in more depth, and she could be transferred to any other class in school if the Head required it.

nursery managers are required to have level 3 qualifications (ie alevel equivalent) and teaching is a level 6 qualification (ie degree level) although as you say you have a degree and your nursery may pay your for a specialism in BSL. Early years teachers have to learn the same pedagogy and child development as all other teachers so are required to have a greater depth than other early years providers. In general I have noticed a difference between early years teachers and early years practitioners - I’m really not interested in the financial or managerial skills someone listed above I really want the expertise to be child centred.

All that said I do think private nursery staff are underpaid in general and that isn’t a good thing.

It's been well known for years that wages in nurseries are very low at a national level, so it's not a career you go into for the money, but while they can still get people to work for them for what they pay nothing is likely to change, especially as nursery fees are also seen as too expensive and many nurseries struggle to break even so its something that doesn't work very well as a business model. Other countries either have far higher government subsidies and/or have ratios that UK parents would find unacceptable.

They're talking about increasing permitted ratios to make the numbers add up better from a business perspective, but it won't necessarily translate into better pay for staff or lower fees for parents, because private sector owners will see this as an opportunity to increase profits.

In the short term, your choice is do something else or put up with it. You could ask for a pay rise, but your employer is likely to say no as they can probably easily replace you if you leave.

It's not right, but that's how it is in the UK, our government is not interested in people like you being paid more, you probably won't ever vote for them, or cause them any sort of inconvenience if you're not happy with your lot.

www.whatuni.com/degree-courses/search?q=bsl

I don't know how it works now but my sister was a primary school teacher for 25 years ,and she started off in the nursery ,but enders up teaching various year groups ,Op it's not your friends fault she's a qualifies teacher or the government's, it's your employees fault for paying crap wages .

I presume your friend works for a Local Authority nursery and you work in a private nursery. My daughter attended both kinds and the quality of teaching and learning in the LA nursery was much better. It was very similar to reception. Private nurseries rarely appoint qualified teachers because they don't want to pay them a higher amount. Get qualified. Move to local authority.

Teachers are paid for what they know, not necessarily what they do.

Have you approached your employer for a pay rise? You have said here what you do, and you sound like you really care about your work and about the children.

If you really want to earn well and continue what you are doing then maybe you should consider opening your own business, maybe not now.

Did you know there is an assessment only route to get QTS? You can do it in 12 weeks, sometimes less.

www.ucas.com/teaching-option/assessment-only-route-qualified-teacher-status-qts

I just can't believe an FS1 'teacher' holds the same status as an A Level Maths teacher. There is no way they are equally qualified or academic.

I'm afraid I agree. It's the qualification. There are paralegals who think (and may be right) that they do the same job as some NQ solicitors but get paid less- but the solicitor has gone on to get the qualifications. Even if the job looks the same the accountability and qualification is different and demands the higher rate.