That this transgender person..

[ClassSize2022]

Should not have been in the ladies changing room? Especially if naked from the waist down.

I can imagine being very frightened in this situation as a biological woman having to share a changing room with a man.

NHS transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802

transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802 Times article

Personally, in over 40 years of employment, I've never known management to bend over backwards to such extreme extents for anyone, ever. It's incredible.

Yes. I've been horrendously bullied and seniors have admitted it happened and that it was unjust but it has also been made clear they would not address it and the union just shrugged.

I do wonder if the bending over backwards by the trust was because they knew that the TW would take them down the tribunal path?

Reading the judgement it's clear that all but 1 of the TW complaints were dismissed as the tribunal found that the trust had not only followed policies and bent over backwards to support the TW they could also evidence it.
Where as the TW offered little to no evidence and what they did provide which was a secret recording actually favoured the trust.

It's all so damn nebulous though isn't it, trying to pin down EXACTLY why this is any different from your bog standard case of indecent exposure (I don't think it is).

WHY is it different from a regular bloke swanning into a female space with his dick on display?
WHAT makes this person different?
We surely agree that they are both biological males.
So therefore it must be down to an internal feeling in this persons head that gives them some kind of exemption to the normal rules.
WHY should we care about the feeling in someone's head?
And HOW do you prove that they even HAVE that feeling in their heads?
What does "living as a woman" mean, if that is supposed to be some kind of marker or proof? Wearing a skirt? At what point does he magically change into a woman and therefore have the right to have male genitals on display? When does his penis become female anatomy?
How can we make laws and legislation around something so unproveable and nebulous?

It all comes back to the fact the he SAYS he is a woman. We are expected to acquiesce to some man, saying he is a woman, and because he SAYS that, it somehow changes how the law applies to him.

For those on this thread who think this is all fine and the poor little TW has been hard done by, do you think it is fine for a penis to be in a female space?
Would you be happy with your female child sharing an intimate space with a fully intact male just because they say they are a woman?
I can't see that this has been answered anywhere.

I don't understand the defenders of this.

If Dave from next door was seen naked from the waist down with your 11-year-old girl in a female changing room, there would be shouting from the rooftops.

Dave is now called Davina, and in the exact same scenario, would be thought of as a poor vulnerable minority that shouldn't be challenged.

When does the magic happen that turns a man into a woman, what materially changes? Absolutely nothing as far as I can see.

And so many people (and a ridiculous amount are women that should know better) will actually argue that those who object are bad people.

Take a look in the mirror and see what you're advocating for. There are no safeguards whatsoever. Any male person can now enter any female space and we have no way to fight back as soon as they utter the words "but I am a woman".

How do people get their heads around the cognitive dissonance to actually argue that it's OK? What am I missing?

It's not often said directly but reading some reports about these incidents it is clear that the unclothed or partially unclothed male bodied person in female-only changing rooms or spas is obviously sexually aroused.
I'm thinking particularly of the person in the Wi-Spa, where it was actually mentioned by one of the people objecting to his presence. He was later charged with a crime for this (and it seems was a known sex offender.)
Also there were some reports about the U.S. swimmer from their team mates. No one said the actual word but there was a mention of how pleased he was to be wandering around naked.
So IMO that's definitely flashing, not validation.

It used to be called a vagina (back in the days when we had “women”).

Can anyone clear up a point of confusion for me, with reference to legal precedent perhaps?

Evidencing discrimination relies on comparing the treatment of someone without the protected characteristic.

Who would the comparator be in this case? I always thought it has to be "someone who is not trans" but is otherwise the same i.e. male bodied, but I wonder if the tribunal viewed the appropriate comparator as "someone who is not trans" but eligible to use that changing room i.e. a woman.

For me, that fundamentally changes the tenor of the case. A non-trans man should definitely not be in those facilities, a non-trans woman has every right. That one point clouds the judgment.

I did a bit of a search online yesterday and found comparator examples for other protected characteristics but not for gender reassignment. Is there anything?

Thanks.

I'm not sure if this has been talked about on this thread but it has on my thread in FWR on the same topic. Essentially many lawyers think the EJ applied the comparator wrong in this case - in this case, someone without the protected characteristic is a man who isn't going through gender reassignment.

twitter.com/peter_daly/status/1549735172131651584?s=21&t=CTpulfhYNz-29qKkgPl3Rg

For me, that fundamentally changes the tenor of the case. A non-trans man should definitely not be in those facilities, a non-trans woman has every right.

Why? I don't think it makes any difference in who gets their cock out. If you have a mixed sex shower area having a penis on show is not unreasonable.

I wonder if the tribunal viewed the appropriate comparator as "someone who is not trans" but eligible to use that changing room i.e. a woman.

I think that's exactly what they did. I think the judgement implies that fairly clearly. The reason that's the case is not the courts fault- the trust made these showers available to all 'women,', including men. Once you have all 'women ' using the showed you can't treat the male ones differently.

Naked from the waist down is HR speak for had his cock out.

Had her cock out you fucking bigot ;-)

So much interest on this thread on my use of 'transphobic hole'. Must admit, I did not at first spot the double entendre. To clarify – as it appears some need it – I am referring to the frequent occurrence of trans-identity threads on MN to collapse into slurs and misrepresentations. In my opinion (because let's be very clear that it is my opinion and no one is required to share it), it is not transphobic to open discussions on gender and sex identity, but it is transphobic for these slurs and misrepresentations to be given a platform in said discussions. Hope that clears things up.

@Didimum

transphobic for these slurs and misrepresentations to be given a platform in said discussions.

If you see a slur, report it. MNHQ are very quick on deletions for genuine transphobia.

I don't get the misrepresentation bit. Most of the discussion on this thread is about the details of the ruling- what do you think is being misrepresented?

I'm curious to know if you think it is 'transphobic' to expect women to share changing rooms where nakedness does or might occur with individuals with penises?

I am referring to the use of the terms 'flasher' and 'pervert' – both terms used on this thread.

I don't think it's transphobic to have the debate. I do think elements of transphobia can occur during such a debate.

I don't think it's transphobic to have the debate. I do think elements of transphobia can occur during such a debate.

I wasn't asking about 'the debate'. I was asking you if you think it is 'transphobic' to expect women to share changing rooms where nakedness does or might occur with individuals with penises?

I am referring to the use of the terms 'flasher' and 'pervert' – both terms used on this thread.

Didimum not a single person had posted anything even close to a slur when you posted about "transphobic hole". Facts are important.

You know... reading all the comments I'm both relieved that so many women see the problem and are not bowing to the "be kind" mantra at the expense of giving up so much for themselves.

Conversely, I am horrified that other just don't get it. I hope these people don't have daughters, don't have young female relatives that are growing up with this looming over them. You're defending the questionable actions of a small group, at the expense of women everywhere.

Yet it still took place. You don't have to agree with me – it's fine.

There are instances where I would and also instances where I wouldn't. I like to evaluate on an individual basis. It's OK for you not to agree with me. I'm not here to change your mind.

Apologies. Multitasking. I was asking you if you think it is 'transphobic' for women to object to share changing rooms with individuals with penises where nakedness does or might occur.

So in some cases where women do object to sharing changing rooms with individuals with penises where nakedness does or might occur it might be transphobic for them to object? Why

So what happens if a transwoman in your space does make you uncomfortable, but the prevailing attitudes mean that management/authorities tell you "tough"? What then? What if other women around you have their boundaries crossed when you don't? Will you support them?

Not in every circumstance, no. And, of course, everyone is entitled to object to something they feel strongly about. Again, some objections can veer into transphobic territory. For example (and this is very simplistic of course), the objection to sharing a space with a transgender woman because of a belief that a transgender woman is more likely to enjoy indecently and inappropriately exposing themselves (eg, a 'flasher').