That this transgender person..

[ClassSize2022]

Should not have been in the ladies changing room? Especially if naked from the waist down.

I can imagine being very frightened in this situation as a biological woman having to share a changing room with a man.

NHS transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802

transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802 Times article

I'm a member at two gyms: one cheap and the other a bit more upmarket. To be fair, we do stand around chatting with nowt on in both 😮

I don't even think this is complicated. The problem is the conflation of sex and gender.

Separating those and establishing where sex takes precedence (safe spaces, shelters, counselling, quotas, medical related etc) and job done. You can't change sex so there should be absolutely no confusion here.

Pronouns, dress, presenting, living how people want - all fine.

The problem with being 'polite' with pronouns is you are setting a precident that that is the correct way to address someone.
And that has to be universal across the board, just as I can't call a man that has attacked me in court, that abuser, I can't take back non sex based pronouns if they are deemed polite address. Even if the person demanding she has done one of the crimes above.

I don't agree with coerced speech.

I didn’t think of it like that. That has given me pause for thought.

Penises have a place in my space

You’re male then? That’s great that you accept penises ‘whatever the penis owner is wearing into male spaces. That’s the change we need to see in the world. Well done!

@Conflictedunicorn - I was a pronoun user but this article really made me think and now I only use them for vulnerable teens. It's by a woman who used to post here:

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Thankyou @Clymene thsts very interesting

That article is very interesting and I think it does make a good point.

it's a hard one to stand up against however, because it seems like a harmless ask, even if it isn't.

The strategies have been clever.

For those saying that TWAW and that a penis doesn't exclude a person from a female only space.

If you/your mum/your sister/your daughter were in prison, would you be OK sharing a cell with a Trans identified Male, (fully intact, on no hormones but stating that they are a woman) . Bearing in mind that current stats show that over 50% of Trans Identified Males in prison are there for sexual violence against women and children?

I got a horrible threatening Christmas card through the post one year. I still have it filed and had reported it to the police immediately. I do not know anyone who would destroy a nasty note.

I do not know anyone who would destroy a nasty note.

it doesn't make a whole lot of sense now does it?

Polite pronouns get you to the point where you are expected to strip in front of your naked male colleague but you no longer have the language to describe why that is sexual discrimination. The tiny words 'she' and 'her' turn you from a workplace-mandated victim of voyeurism and indecent exposure to a mean-girl workplace bully.

Polite pronouns is all I'm prepared to do. Take the piss out of my goodwill in terms that I determine, and I withdraw my concession.
At my work, they were well on the way to getting compelled pronouns in our email signatures. Someone senior stepped in and we had an all staff message saying: do or don't your choice. It all but quoted the Forstater case.

Thinking about it, I'm more comfortable with someone avoiding their own sex pronouns than I am with them laying claim to the opposite sexes pronouns. So perhaps they/them would be a better compromise. Or attempting to avoid pronoun use altogether, which is possible.

I won't use preferred pronouns for reasons mentioned above. I'll talk round them if necessary but that's as far as I'll go.

Haha, nah! Just got bored and decided to get on with something worth my time

The report is 61 pages, and it's really worth reading (hope this link works):
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62cff0578fa8f50bfafb091d/V_v_Sheffield_Teaching_Hospitals_NHS_Foundation_Trust_1806836-2020___Others.pdf

Personally, in over 40 years of employment, I've never known management to bend over backwards to such extreme extents for anyone, ever. It's incredible.

And as PP have said - there should be no men in women's single-sex spaces, ever. No males in females' spaces. This has to be law. This needs to be law, not some mere option according to whim or interpretation.

They used to take flashing seriously.

Indeed. Flashing, sexual exhibitionism, is a crime, unless committed by... in which case it didn't happen and anyway, women are being mean and nasty.

Does anyone know the ratio of trans men to trans women? Are there more trans women and if so by roughly how much?

Is there any reason/research why there are more men that want to be like women if this is the case?

@Scianel , you've changed my mind. I will now also talk around pronouns to avoid using.

@DrainedHelp AGP is an exclusively male condition so I imagine that would distort any counting. Also counting is genocide because they just want to pee.

I am part way through reading the tribunal findings and I think you have misunderstood the trust's position and have also glossed over the fact that even the tribunal judges diplomatically referenced the claimants credibility deficit.

If you have read the document, including the legal principles at the beginning then it is apparent that there was no legal benefit to the Trust in trying to prove the claimant a liar. Not disputing the claimants allegations of transphobic abuse (specifically the two notes in the locker and the overheard conversation in the changing room) is not evidence that this actually happened. The Trust simply had to prove that they had done everything possible to prevent other staff discriminating against the claimant which they were easily able to do. Attempting to prove the claimant was lying would not have added to their defence at all.

The claimant stated that they destroyed the first abusive note they received, which seems somewhat implausible given their behaviour both before and after employment, so there was no tangible evidence that an abusive note had even been left. There was no corroborating evidence for the overheard conversation despite other colleagues being in the changing room at the same time and one of them helpfully supplying a list of everyone else who was present at the time the alleged conversation took place. The only tangible evidence provided was an abusive message written on a sanpro disposal bag but as no handwriting analysis was ever undertaken we cannot rule out that the claimant wrote it. A thorough investigation of all incidents was undertaken, the claimants account of events was inconsistent which was acknowledged by the tribunal judge.

The only thing we know for sure is that the claimant made allegations which could not be verified and there was no legal benefit to the Trust disputing the claimants account.

Are there any middle aged women who decide they are men? As in, any at all? Have you seen any evidence of women putting on suits and masturbating in male toilets, and posting pictures of this on line. Or of them taking swords into male toilets and taking pictures of themselves? Or heard of them insisting on using male toilets and changing rooms before they even start the job, and getting naked from the waist down in front of men?