Go on fess up, who’s eating all the good graduates?

[Whatsyournameandwheredyoucomefrom]

I am currently interviewing grads for an entry level role in the marketing industry and SWEETMARYANDJOSEPH it’s tough going.

I’ve been taking in cohorts of grads for 10 years and in past years they were always keen to learn, chatty, determined to show the best of themselves and keen to know more about the industry. I’ve found graduate hiring to be a really
lovely thing; starting people off on their careers is something I love to do.

This year is bloody horrendous. I’ve done 23 interviews so far (5 roles available) and bar 2, without exception there’s zero enthusiasm or ‘self selling’, it’s more like I’m asking them to do a household chore and they’re getting pocket money in return - it’s ‘well if I really must do this job, what’s in it for me’. For example today a 21 year old cut me off mid sentence as I was talking about possible career progression through the industry and said ‘yeah I’m probably not thinking about that right now, I’m just figuring out what industry I want to get into right now you know? Like what is it about XXXX (that industry I’ve been in my entire career) that you think is worth pursuing because I could do basically anything and be fine you know?’ - very nearly snapped ‘this is an interview not a careers fair’ but held my tongue. Another told me £22k was basically slavery (her exact words) and she couldn’t work for less than £30k - not even graduated yet ffs. Also, oop norf so no London premium either.

I’m not expecting gratitude for the interview, I don’t even expect them to know anything about the industry and I’ll pay them £22k for the privilege of being fairly useless for a year while they learn. They can be earning £30k in 2 years with the training they get at the early stages through this role and I’ve had some go one to £50k+ in that time and yet almost without exception, none of the grads this year have turned up to the interview with any indication that they actually want the job.

What is this?? Is someone sweeping up all the driven, good candidates and paying them megabucks? Or are universities setting mad expectations on salary and not teaching interview skills?

I’m 35 so it’s not like I’m totally out of touch and feel a bit daft saying it but is this a generational thing? Covid?? WHAT IS HAPPENING?

But surely struggling to get by isn't something that graduates should be striving for? It's not ok that you weren't paid properly either. It shouldn't be a case of "I was paid peanuts and it didn't do me any harm so everyone else should have to struggle too"

If you're not prepared to pay more, get rid of the degree requirement and take on someone with just GCSEs or A Levels.

I agree that more young people are skeptical about capitalism etc. After all they study for years then cannot even afford a house. People don't want to work crazy hard for less than their parents generation had.

I agree that you are going to struggle to attract talent if you’re only offering £22k. I actually laughed at a recruiter once who phoned me up to persuade me to apply for a job paying that and that was 5 years ago. You need to pay at least £27k to get someone decent I would have thought.

That’s engineering though with a specific degree, this is marketing with literally any degree in any field (and now without a degree as of this afternoon).

You'll only be getting the dregs on that salary!

Haha, I absolutely relate to this. Totally different sector but line manage some gen zs and amazed by their rudeness gumption…

Yes your leave is generous @Whatsyournameandwheredyoucomefrom
I was referring to how "unlimited" annual leave started and the reputation it often still has

Yes, but it was also 12 years ago! The equivalent grad job is now a £33/34 k starting salary.

Think the salary is a bit low. In the business I ran 2 years ago our graduate trainees got £26k in the north west.

This is interesting, from a teaching pov. We bend over backwards for kids (and are often rewarded with rudeness for our pains). Parents are often fully behind students and demand we give more and more. We often wonder what happens once they have to function on other peoples ' terms. Now I know.

So it is limited then...

This is from Sheffield university think they would know what their graduates are starting on and the local market.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with an interviewee asking what's in it for them.

So it's "unlimited" but:

You have to take big blocks.
You have to book it 3 months in advance.

That's shit. And very limited.

I guess it depends - do grads genuinely work 35 hours a week?

I usually assume 40 hours is more realistic for a graduate job, at which point you're paying £10.58 an hour. That's 48p per hour more than checkout operators at Aldi, Asda etc.

7 weeks annual leave as a base is a great deal though - does that include bank holidays? If so, it's then what, 27 days as a starting point which is a normal, fairly decent starting point. I think I would wonder as an applicant whether taking any more than that would be reasonable - if it's based on being on top enough of my work to be "able" to take it I don't think that would be realistic, because I always have more to do than I have time to do it.

Do you mean 7 weeks or do you mean 45 days?

'Soft skills' ie people skills, how to conduct yourself in an interview etc have massively been affected by covid, and I think you need to be a bit gentler on this year's cohort than any previous. We have final year graduates on placement with us and across the board this year has been quite shocking. However when getting to know the students we realised that half of them had had almost their entire university teaching online, their earlier placements struggled to offer them proper opportunities through lockdowns and they were able to make up credits through extra essays. Many had either remained at home or moved back home during uni (no point being on campus)

Normally our final year placement students would have been out in the field, would have been traveling for conferences, networking at training events, working or travelling in their holidays. The student I had, I realised on her first day she'd never physically been in an office. I had to go back to absolute basics with her about things like - dress code, how to approach people, the importance of speaking to people in person if they work in the same building rather than always going to email first, about not wearing headphones etc etc.

I know it might sound like mollycoddling but this was across the board for us (from multiple unis btw) and I don't think it's fair to say they were all unusually bad, it really does seem to be how their introduction to the world of work has been affected in the last couple of years.

I live in an area that is struggling to recruit even accountants.
Soooo many job vacancies of many types.
People dont want/cant live on lower salaries any more.

I had the same issue and we were offering 28k-30k plus healthcare, flexible working and bonus. It was dire.

I interviewed twelve candidates, all marketing graduates, but there was no enthusiasm, no research or interest in the job, and indifference in objectives. I had one candidate tell me that what he really wanted was to be a professional sportsman and 'when his break came, he'd be off'. Another candidate did a video interview in what appeared to be her pyjamas.

We are a nice friendly young company, profitable, good growth. I was genuinely puzzled. In the end I employed an older candidate from a European country. Digital Marketing is on the allowed visa list.

It was a shame but I tried for months and got nowhere.

As the old saying goes, if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

I hear you too. My secretary is 72 and she has more enthusiasm, energy and drive than all of the under 30's put together.

@Whatsyournameandwheredyoucomefrom where up north? I might be interested.

Yeesh, when I graduated with my PhD 7 years ago my first job paid me 18k in London. Seems I undersold myself a bit...

I actually think this is the answer.

also I’m not saying we pay enough btw - I don’t set the rates and this is all good stuff for me to take back to the business to argue why we need to be offering more.

I’m also not saying it’s ok that grads aren’t paid enough to live on independently - but that has been the way of things forever. They’re absolutely useless to us for the first year. We invest our time and a hell of a lot of resource in training them (we are an agency, our time is literally what we sell) for a year, they get a huge range of experience around the agency from SEO to web dev to creative and media planning and we treat it like an apprenticeship. My question is why this specific cohort of grads have such wildly different expectations to every other year including my own?

My husband who works at a uni down south said he has students he can send you for placements or graduates! Good students as well!

He also did say this is the first cohort to graduate that have been through covid and they have missed out on so many skills. He has found them getting more and more demanding regarding replies etc..... (someone emailing him at 6.30pm on a Friday and then emailing again on a Sunday morning demanding to know why they haven't had a reply yet!).