Go on fess up, who’s eating all the good graduates?

[Whatsyournameandwheredyoucomefrom]

I am currently interviewing grads for an entry level role in the marketing industry and SWEETMARYANDJOSEPH it’s tough going.

I’ve been taking in cohorts of grads for 10 years and in past years they were always keen to learn, chatty, determined to show the best of themselves and keen to know more about the industry. I’ve found graduate hiring to be a really
lovely thing; starting people off on their careers is something I love to do.

This year is bloody horrendous. I’ve done 23 interviews so far (5 roles available) and bar 2, without exception there’s zero enthusiasm or ‘self selling’, it’s more like I’m asking them to do a household chore and they’re getting pocket money in return - it’s ‘well if I really must do this job, what’s in it for me’. For example today a 21 year old cut me off mid sentence as I was talking about possible career progression through the industry and said ‘yeah I’m probably not thinking about that right now, I’m just figuring out what industry I want to get into right now you know? Like what is it about XXXX (that industry I’ve been in my entire career) that you think is worth pursuing because I could do basically anything and be fine you know?’ - very nearly snapped ‘this is an interview not a careers fair’ but held my tongue. Another told me £22k was basically slavery (her exact words) and she couldn’t work for less than £30k - not even graduated yet ffs. Also, oop norf so no London premium either.

I’m not expecting gratitude for the interview, I don’t even expect them to know anything about the industry and I’ll pay them £22k for the privilege of being fairly useless for a year while they learn. They can be earning £30k in 2 years with the training they get at the early stages through this role and I’ve had some go one to £50k+ in that time and yet almost without exception, none of the grads this year have turned up to the interview with any indication that they actually want the job.

What is this?? Is someone sweeping up all the driven, good candidates and paying them megabucks? Or are universities setting mad expectations on salary and not teaching interview skills?

I’m 35 so it’s not like I’m totally out of touch and feel a bit daft saying it but is this a generational thing? Covid?? WHAT IS HAPPENING?

Sign of the times I'm afraid.

And presumably they knew the salary before the interview took place!

Well just ask them how they got it?
Finance/tech always have spring weeks, internships, It’s a thing.
When I was at a prestigious uni people who hadn’t been able to get a proper internship were told to write to various companies, asking for experience.
Usually look them up on LinkedIn, find a commonality and message them.
Did work for quite a few people!

The best people also don’t just take ‘any job’. They might want to try a few.

Also why no job offered. Sometimes they take more internet than there are places. All great, but they have to choose.

I’d look at the whole package and reasons

Also it’s not the internship per se but how they use it to answer competency questions.

I agree that it's how they use their internship to answer competency questions but they can be answered using a wealth of other experience. The problem comes from grads who don't join Uni clubs, don't have hobbies and have never had any jobs - they have literally nothing to talk about, their biggest achievement is getting through Uni - just like everyone else on your list. Although some do try to make it up - even the big named Oxbridge kind.😏

Exactly. I find it strange that loads of people are responding referencing their own starting salaries/years of experience. It’s really irrelevant.
I only provided an illustrative example of what grads with any old degree ‘could’ earn in my company/field to show that higher salaries exist in the North West.

But I’m not In marketing. So I wouldn’t know whether 22K was appealing, to people who wanted a marketing job and career as opposed to just the highest paid, ‘any’ job.

Ah yes, that’s true!
We’re never as you said particularly impressed solely by internships. ‘Work experience’ includes clubs, hobbies etc basically anything where there are skills.

I cannot understand how ANYBODY can get away with not realising the importance of these as career advisors at prestigious unis talk about it fr day one. But maybe they’re too important to go to career fairs, or think big name degree = £££.

Another issue I have with internships is that they often are only offered for 6 weeks - a student from a lower socio-economic background couldn't afford to only work 6 weeks of their holiday and getting a job for the remainder would be very tricky, students from poorer backgrounds are also less likely to get an intern place through Mummy and Daddy contacts (although fewer students get internships through contacts now) - we are keen not to disadvantage poorer students - so anything we see as a potential barrier, we try to remove if possible.

We've given up on careers fairs - they don't bear much fruit - students reportedly see little value in them, and they are expensive to attend (in terms of staffing and expenses) again whilst we are London based we would like to reach Students from throughout the UK.

We take far more internships (about 3x) than grad jobs offered after the internship stage so I don’t think it’s unusual not to have been converted.

We have an apprentice scheme that runs concurrently with our graduate scheme. These young people are generally far more mature and practical than our grads - most have worked for a year or taken a non-traditional route to our industry, despite being usually 18 or 19 rather than 23.

I really like to see grads who have worked part-time in hospitality or retail before joining us. It shows ability to stick out something a bit uncomfortable and learn some practical people-based problem solving skills.

My most frustrating grad (rotational) last year flatly refused to ever turn her camera on, didn’t get in touch with me unless I reached out first & during Covid it was incredibly hard to get to know her. I wouldn’t be able to pick her out in the office now we’re back.

We didn’t end up extending a permanent offer (it was hers to lose) as I had no confidence in her.

@mathanxiety exactly!

I work with graduates and some are exceptional others less so. A diverse range much like any employee base.
in terms of his salary my DS worked bloody hard to secure his job and and has a first class honours degree.

Around 30% of grads now get a first - do you remember when first's were as rare as hen's teeth?

It frustrates me when I interview grads who have never had a day's paid work in their lives

I think it's harder now to find work as a teenager but surely uni students can pick up retail or hospitality work over summer

They have nothing to say for themselves. No experience to draw on at interview

When I ask how they spent their summers they say studying! Yeh right 🙄

Fair enough - they can also be virtual now though so more equitable.
I didn’t necessarily mean career fairs but career events run by the university. Talks etc. I went to one in first year and was told the importance of doing other stuff. But then again I was very clear as to ‘why’ I was going to university!
There was also lots of free help offered with interview practice etc.

It boggles my mind that ANYBODY from a prestigious university can graduate and realise they don’t know anything about job searching as there’s a lot of peer pressure, everyone all around you is doing stuff for their CV/applying for jobs.

DP’s low-ranked/provincial (I really don’t know how to put this) university had 2 sessions on CV writing for 2nd years , a career fair and was it.

It boggles my mind that anyone from a prestigious university can produce such poor applications - but we see it time and time again. And then if they get through that stage, they are very last minute about the online tests we set them, and they don't prepare for the interview, despite being given the format.
If you can't work for yourself producing an application that isn't littered with typos, mistakes, and mistruths - what hope do we have trying to convince you to do a good job working for us?

I agree with this. Even if they don't do paid work they should be volunteering instead, rather than spending their holidays playing computer games. In the law "commercial awareness" is a big thing - which people think is reading the FT, but actually it's just having real world experience which teaches you a work ethic and soft skills. Volunteering to help organise a student ball or working in a cafe is good experience. My ds has helped out at a couple of athletics events since he came home which at least gives him something to talk about (he is redoing his lifeguard qualification so he can get a paid job as well).

Studying during the summer holidays - yeah right :)

I said to my ds last week that he should do the England Athletics track judge course so he can become a qualified official as he's helped out enough to get it (you do a course and have to volunteer four times to qualify) He was typical teen lazy about it and said "being a track judge won't help me get a "proper" (graduate) job" but I disabused him of that notion! Doing something with your life other than studying (and playing computer games) definitely helps get a job (and hopefully gives you the soft skills to keep it as well).

This is also true - lots of kids get work experience because of who their parents know.

The firm I work for said they would stop this, and anyone doing work experience with the firm would have to apply via the proper channels. They haven't though, and we have various people doing work experience who know people in the firm in some way and did not apply via the normal channels.

What about bright A level school leavers, save them from massive uni debt and teach them well for a year - they will soon be up to speed.

Don't you think most of those are personality traits, rather than learnt behaviours?

People can be lazy and not have lazy parents. Or vice versa.

And the interviews for hospitality and retail can be an education in themselves. Ds has had to put himself into some very uncomfortable situations, doing role play, group exercises, selling a product, and then going live with the general public - getting comfortable with being uncomfortable is a great skill to have, and learning to sell is a great skill to have, dealing with difficult people, dealing and working with a diverse range of people, problem-solving, resilience to deal with boring repetitive tasks and stay motivated to finish - all great experience and really improves confidence levels - you can really turn a min wage job to your advantage it can really be a learning experience (initially anyway) but it depends how you see these things.

One memorable interview (for a government financial regulatory grad scheme ). I told thé interviewer all about my misadventures in organising a society ‘picnic’. To the outdoor venue being rained on , student Union having lost out booking forms for backup indoor venue, and finally managing to find a little hidden pub with a nice owner who didn’t mind our last minute take over. He probably felt sorry for rain soaked me!

The interviewer burst out laughing and I got to the next stage 😂😂

there were also the various, Um colourful events I did as an event staff in London. Weddings, funerals, everything in between. Got some good stories. I think they found me rather entertaining …

I am graduating tomorrow at the ripe old age of 42 (!)
My university experience was great, there was a bunch of us who were ‘mature’ and were great to be around, plus a few of the younger ones. However, during some lectures it was painful to watch the lecturers trying to get engagement from students (usually ending up in a mature student talking as we couldn’t bear the silence). I don’t know what it is, but there is a culture, it seems, of not being responsible for anything, complaining about any work and behaving as if everyone owes you something - it was really quite bizarre.

Congratulations Brightspark - I hope you have a good job lined up!

I own a hospitality business and employ students. The number who only want to work one or two shifts and then ask for a reference is insane. It was completely unheard of when I started my company ten plus years ago.

I went to uni in the 90s and it was like this in some subjects then!

That was my experience too. I used to wait...then talk when I couldn't stand the silence anymore.

But no, the "drinking boys" got the training contracts, as they had contacts & often family at the few firms that trained people. I think I'm still bitter, was told (verbatim) I was too old at 30, firms wouldn't get their money's worth out of me. Big dose of misogyny there too, as I assume they thought I'd have kids too. Even the big companies that muttered on about diversity didn't interview me & I'd won all the prizes, etc. I had the lads with a 3rd & a job commiserate with me.

Well done. Hope things have improved & you get where you want to be!