Go on fess up, who’s eating all the good graduates?

[Whatsyournameandwheredyoucomefrom]

I am currently interviewing grads for an entry level role in the marketing industry and SWEETMARYANDJOSEPH it’s tough going.

I’ve been taking in cohorts of grads for 10 years and in past years they were always keen to learn, chatty, determined to show the best of themselves and keen to know more about the industry. I’ve found graduate hiring to be a really
lovely thing; starting people off on their careers is something I love to do.

This year is bloody horrendous. I’ve done 23 interviews so far (5 roles available) and bar 2, without exception there’s zero enthusiasm or ‘self selling’, it’s more like I’m asking them to do a household chore and they’re getting pocket money in return - it’s ‘well if I really must do this job, what’s in it for me’. For example today a 21 year old cut me off mid sentence as I was talking about possible career progression through the industry and said ‘yeah I’m probably not thinking about that right now, I’m just figuring out what industry I want to get into right now you know? Like what is it about XXXX (that industry I’ve been in my entire career) that you think is worth pursuing because I could do basically anything and be fine you know?’ - very nearly snapped ‘this is an interview not a careers fair’ but held my tongue. Another told me £22k was basically slavery (her exact words) and she couldn’t work for less than £30k - not even graduated yet ffs. Also, oop norf so no London premium either.

I’m not expecting gratitude for the interview, I don’t even expect them to know anything about the industry and I’ll pay them £22k for the privilege of being fairly useless for a year while they learn. They can be earning £30k in 2 years with the training they get at the early stages through this role and I’ve had some go one to £50k+ in that time and yet almost without exception, none of the grads this year have turned up to the interview with any indication that they actually want the job.

What is this?? Is someone sweeping up all the driven, good candidates and paying them megabucks? Or are universities setting mad expectations on salary and not teaching interview skills?

I’m 35 so it’s not like I’m totally out of touch and feel a bit daft saying it but is this a generational thing? Covid?? WHAT IS HAPPENING?

Depends on the role, experience, talent and location - one of our 27 year olds is on more than £58k and one of our 27 year olds is on quite a bit less - both have a Master's degree.. give a piece of work to both and one will need a lot of hand holding, guidance and generally will use a lot of management's time to get there, the other will be able to run with something with minimal guidance, make valuable contributions and produce a quality piece of work. The lower-paid person is taking longer to develop - not helped by their refusal to come into the office more frequently.

Don’t their PARENTS model this sort of stuff?

This is a parenting site, but it seems to me, a lot of parents are complicit in the minority of young people who are overfull of entitlement.

To those saying 22k is”peanuts” - it’s not if there’s a clear progression and training path. I’d loved to have been able to see how I could double my salary and receive really useful training and mentoring within 5-6 years of starting my first job post graduation.

I went for a PhD and worked 1.5 jobs + my PhD and thought I was well paid on £15k (probably around £30k now) in my first post-PhD lectureship. Took me about 10 years and a couple of (expensive) moves to double that.

But that’s not new? I was a grad, started on £16k in 2010 after gcse, a level and a degree. Not sure what minimum wage was back then, but I certainly couldn’t have bought a house, paid rent alone etc

OP, £16k in 2010 is equivalent to almost £25k today. You earned more then than these graduates you're trying to hire now, plus the cost of housing and rent for them is far, far higher than it was for you.

Interesting - internships give very little extra for us on a CV for us. The experience is usually not relevant and even if it is in the same sector, the bad habits gained by poor experience are often more irritating and difficult to remove. The intern experience through covid seems particularly limited.

This is a very good point actually, there is a lot of untapped value in the re-entry workforce, and depending on the age you get them at they could 20-30 years of career left in them. They might be a better match for the offer as well, and will likely be proactive about getting training to fill the gaps in their knowledge and skills too.

Parents don’t need to do anything.
It’s the graduates themselves who should be talking to seniors, going to networking events.
A PhD doesn’t mean anything. You could do one in Art History which there really isn’t demand for - I wouldn’t tell a child who did that to expect a high salary unless they found a niche.

I personally based my salary expectations on what people were actually getting. There’s no need for guesswork

Parents don’t need to do anything.

No, but it helps if they have brought up their offspring to be hard-working, resilient, co-operative, curious, and confident.l

Don’t their PARENTS model this sort of stuff?
This is a parenting site, but it seems to me, a lot of parents are complicit in the minority of young people who are overfull of entitlement.

I wish I could say that parents modeling this sort of stuff is enough!
Twins - the difference in their approach to work is remarkable and it has always been there.
You'd think having someone educate you on how to approach these things would help but dt1 is the I'm not working for peanuts type, I'm too good for them, pay me what I'm worth and it has not worked out well for him. Despite being academically bright, that youthful arrogance and delicate male ego does him no favours, it does not allow him to be agile and learn quickly in a practical sense - it's infuriating to watch but we can do little else, I assume he'll eventually figure it out whilst we are not watching.
Dt2 does not have that arrogance - listened to her parent's advice and is doing really well. Works hard, shows initiative and will enthusiastically do anything she is asked and more - one of her work colleagues wrote a note to me recently to tell me how amazing she was!

To those saying 22k is”peanuts” - it’s not if there’s a clear progression and training path. I’d loved to have been able to see how I could double my salary and receive really useful training and mentoring within 5-6 years of starting my first job post graduation.

Correct and if it's a good company and you impress then you'll be moved on, it's a stepping stone. And good people get remembered, networking is so important. The skills learnt and the doors good training can open is how careers develop. Saying "our admin are on more than that" doesn't mean anything - do they have a career path? They probably have more work experience so their skills are in more demand, admin isn't easy, I'd be a shit administrator and coming in, showing willing and learning is the best experience one can get. OP the people you're getting through, sound crap and I'd be appalled if one of my children went into an interview with that attitude.

Don't worry, you made perfect sense. (BA hons philosophy)

Completely agree with previous posters that this is about career path. Some ladders are worth getting onto!

I think it's all gone down the pan. I think the standards in uni are crap, you don't need to have good grammar, spelling etc. And I think the attitude for young people is different to when I was at uni. I'm 40 and I'm actually about to re-enter the workforce and seeking something exciting with my wealth of eclectic experience.

I think their attitude has become one of most money for least effort, not proving themselves. I've made this point before too about the uni students who mum and dad pay for, they graduate with zero work experience and expect to walk into a 30K job.

I worked throughout uni and walked into a job on leaving. I never worked my way up to anything but gained lots of experience and now self-employed but my child is about to start full-time school and I want to do something fresh.

Why not offer these opportunities to older people as well as graduates?

hear hear

Very late to the thread but this line jumped out at me from your OP -

I’m not expecting gratitude for the interview, I don’t even expect them to know anything about the industry and I’ll pay them £22k for the privilege of being fairly useless for a year while they learn.

It sounds more like for the first few months/year it’s more of an internships/traineeship where new starts are trained in the industry - would you not be better off advertising it as stuff? If the understanding of training - and that is put first and foremost in reality, too - is front and centre, then £22k to learn the skills of the industry seems more realistic.

£22k starting salary = a bit crap really.
£22k internship with salary increase upon successful completion = not too bad.

Totally disagree that the standards in uni are crap. They maybe in some but not all. If they were how come my son is sought out by all the directors in the organisation he works in to do the things that they cant? He worked extremely hard, had lots of exams and was taught by very experienced and clever lecturers at uni. To suggest that they were no good is quite insulting

Link to job advert? I know someone with a PhD who is looking for a job. Based in the midlands but could work remotely. (Working as freelance at the moment)

University was not easier in years gone by.
I did my undergrad in the early the 2000s and my MA two years ago.
I couldn’t believe the difference between the two. For my undergrad, I had to spend hours in the university library, searching for evidence and counter evidence, quotes and references.
For my MA I sat at home and accessed the university library online. I was able to type in keywords and given immediate relevant evidence. I also had the bibliography and reference list automatically generated for me.
For MA exams I could access online tutorials to listen to my lectures again in order to revise. Instead of having to go from notes on a page. I could watch videos online from other academics to gain a wider knowledge.
The difference was incredible.

Well everyone has different skills - you attribute your ds's success to the lecturers who taught him? Massive leap of faith there - in the event you have a crap lecturer what do you do? Nothing? No you crack on get books and teach yourself the course - if you are bright and curious you survive crap standards.

And there are plenty of things directors of companies can and don't need to be able to do, that's why they employ people - it's not a sign of weakness or strength - different roles require different skills.

I also think that especially with graduates covid hugely exacerbated a trend of not being independent that has been increasing for years, anyway.

A lot of the parts a degree that give it non-academic value were (necessarily) removed. The ability to live independently and manage your own time and finances was universally and forcibly removed for these kids. OP is looking for graduates assuming they have had this general experience and they haven’t. They just got the academics (which she doesn’t want). In terms of everything else, they’re 18 and living at home. How could they not be That’s what they’ve done!

Having said that, this is a general trend. It was super noticeable when I was an undergrad that we managed our own finances (often very badly, at least at first) time (ditto) houses (incredibly badly) and work (often less badly, but still not always well). We forged adult relationships not based on family ties or with any overall authority (often with great drama and navel gazing)

If we really fucked up, there was support. But mostly we figured it out. And I think that’s the value of a graduate. That experience is formative and I valued it hugely.

Kids aren’t getting that now. They’re still answering to their parents, who are funding them, so they aren’t learning to work for it’s own sake or natural consequences, but because of parental authority. They aren’t learning to manage their money, their parents are pre-managing it for them.
(I have student houses. When students had grants, I dealt with students. When they stopped I dealt with parents) Even when I went back to do a second degree at only 24, the difference was massive. Students expected to AskJeeves the question and click on the answer. They didn’t know how to use a search system to find a source-reference and them go and find the source in a journal or periodical, critique it and select information to answer the question. They all had cars and went home every weekend. (We went on trains and rarely went home. Campus was party time at weekends !) Their lives were still at home in a way mine never was. They commuted to the course. They valued academics more, and generally did well, because it was expected of them, but because it was very clear that funds and privileges (like cars) would be removed by parents if they did not. And that was all that they were responsible for.

I argued vehemently and unpopularly for the retention of a final year dissertation. They wanted to move it to smaller projects. I was very pro the research critiquing side of things. You need it in a science profession. More so in a health one - implementing the research into best practices for your patients should be what health professionals DO. It’s a key skill. But they found it hard and didn’t want to do it. They said ‘it’s alright for you, you're used to it’ But I GOT used to it by doing it a lot for a dissertation! I had found going back to being spoon fed in a first year difficult (there was so much teaching and giving information, it was hard to find time to process information well enough to actually learn anything).

Students are consumers, paying to be taught, so universities can’t allow failure to learn, or they’re failing to provide what’s been paid for! I thought it was going back to the beginning, but now I think the degree and universities have fundamentally changed. It’s no longer a formative adult experience. It’s an extension of childhood where failure isn’t a real option, you are motivated by parental consequences, not natural ones and where you learn to find and critique information yourself instead of being presented with it to re-present for exams.

I find this thread very odd. The job has really good progression so it’s in no way comparable to shelf stacking and the like. Some careers pay very well for graduates, others less so. Software development and many financial services roles pay bucket loads and skew the stats massively. Other jobs don’t need “graduate skills” but should come with a higher wage because of levels of responsibility and inconvenience to life.

When. I worked in investment, i earned £80-£90K including bonus. DH worked in the environmental field, has a STEM phd and an engineering masters and earned about a third of my wage. I was made redundant and had a career change and now earn less than my old bonus. DH is now at a more senior level and earns around £57K - for this he works a lot of hours and has a lot of responsibility. He isn’t poorly paid but earns the same as the 27 year old referred to in one of the posts above.

my friend has a son who graduated with a first from a highly regarded uni. He didn’t find it easy to get a job - friend said jobs vacancies were all over the news but he was finding they were mainly in lower skilled roles (hospitality, etc) and specific technical fields but there wasn’t a glut of positions to apply for outside this.

At the risk of me-railing and now I have rtft I think this is a relevant point. Your package looks very attractive to me as a returner to work, and I’d definitely consider it. BUT I don’t need to survive solo on the salary, get a mortgage, have paid off my student loans, value benefits and flexibility because I have a family and can see that your policies indicate a unusually positive work culture. Kids don’t want health care, they think they’ll live forever. They don’t know what a great perk a fuel allowance is. They haven’t enough experience of packages to know a good one. Pensions are the lady things in their kinds right now. They are filtering by salary, either mentally or in searches.

I reckon this cohort is a bit shit, but you’re not seeing the best of them by a long chalk. So, are you taking not-recent-graduates? 🤣

I used to do Grad recruitment as well and whilst it's been a while since I was in the industry I found the same! It's as though they expect us to hand it all on a plate to them! We even had to withdraw an offer to one of them who bad mouthed our process on twitter on her way home from the assessment centre. She basically complained that she had to get up at the crack of dawn to do some "silly games" and answer a "load of idiot questions".
I don't know what the answer is but I'd like to know what they're being taught about the process at uni!

To be fair £22k is about the same graduate recruits were getting when i gradated. And technically I vouldvhave had a child and had them graduate since then snd these ones will be saddled with a debt that I just didn't have to deal with.

t. BUT I don’t need to survive solo on the salary, get a mortgage, have paid off my student loans, value benefits and flexibility because I have a family and can see that your policies indicate a unusually positive work culture.

and neither do they. As they OP said. It’s a short term stepping stone to earning a lot more money within a reasonable time frame. If the ceiling was £22k I would agree but it’s not, it’s the starting point to a career, not a final salary in a job