Teacher and student hit

[Sixpencefaux]

Has anybody seen the footage from a Leeds secondary school where a student attacks another student. When the teacher steps in, the student then repeatedly punched the teacher in the face. It really is shocking.

How has it got to the stage where not expelling violent pupils is deemed reasonable?

No, it’s all about you isn’t it.

Exclude them to where?

Violence is not always because children have SN and I think people are too quick to attribute their behaviour to this. Sometimes they act this way because it is what they see at home or from the others they hang around with.

I'm not saying that kids with SN are not violent. DD is at a school for kids with SN and some of the kids have regular meltdowns. The difference is that the teachers and TAs are trained to deal with this. Classes are smaller and staff are usually very aware of triggers.

The problem is that there is nowhere for violent kids to go if they are excluded. Some sort of specialist provision is needed but that is very unlikely to happen as there is not even enough SN provision. Once kids have been excluded for violent behaviour their future is usually pretty bleak. If they have been brought up in a home or with friends who normalise violence then lots of work will be needed to try and break the cycle and sometimes it is just not possible.

Well yes myself and my unborn child would be my priority, I wouldn't walk on by or stand by uselessly I would find a colleague to intervene- but i won't ever feel bad or apologies for it being 'all about' me if that means not intervening in a physical fight between young adults that probably weigh more than me and are almost all taller than me. What other profession would someone who is pregnant be expected to do that? Alternative duties are offered in other professions where this could happen.

Who else should it be about, and don't think these posters are saying its all about them, they're saying it's about protecting their unborn child?

I suspect fights are very unlikely in grammar schools.
The issue is our educational system doesn't cater to non-academic pupils. We're trying to push square pegs into round holes, it won't work, and bored, disillusioned kids is going to result in fisty cuffs.
I'm not saying the behaviour is acceptable, it's obviously never okay, but governments educational minister really needs to look at what's going on in state schools....of course most MPs don't give a fig coz their kids go to private schools.

Bring back pupil referral units which teach kids what parents used to like not to use violence to get their own way

Bring back Borstals for the bad kids and vocational schools for kids aged 14+ that have no aptitude for Academia.

Not sure where all the assumptions that fighting kid =not academic are coming from. I've seen, and split up, many fights over the years. And had the odd punch for my troubles. I would say parenting and social media are more likely to influence fighting than other things. Social media is a particular nightmare, as everything is OTT, then it continues in school. And girls are as bad as the boys. But you get more warning, cos they like to do some shrieking first. There's usually at least one 'you fat cunt' thrown in too.

You can't help but intervene in a fight, it's instinctive: get them off each other.

Bless him for that! I hope he got suitable praise and recognition afterwards.

Similar situation years ago now - I was trying to stop a fight between two 12 year olds and as soon as I managed to separate one the other would start again - I was really struggling. I had sent a child to fetch the Head of Year - no other staff in sight. I managed to get hold of one and then a Year 11 boy (a bit of a naughty boy, but more roguish than really bad) came and got hold of the other larger boy. What a hero!

The HOY turned up and looked a bit sideways at the year 11 who then went to class. When I explained, the HOY went into the Year 11 boy's class, called him to the front, praised him, expressed my thanks as well as his own, and shook his hand.

Then for the rest of the year, the Year 11 boy would come into my classroom at the start of lessons, throw his chest out and demand to know how many heroes could I see! He was a sweetie really! The HOY did a good job there, it really got him on side.

Agree with this. Ds is in a private school, believe me violence happens there too. And yes the girls are just as bad.

I went to a girls grammar.

There were very violent fights on a regular basis.

There are still PRUs. I work in one. As I said down the thread, PRU places are expensive, budgets are stretched, and places available vary.

I’ve not seen the video, do you know what school it was? I’m a teacher and about to apply for an inner city leeds school so am curious.

At my school we’ve been categorically told we don’t get involved, we ring reception and a member of senior management will come up and decide if the police are to be called, a teacher had his arm broken last year separating a fight so they don’t want us to put ourself at risk.

They have options for vocational courses for year 10 (age 14) onwards, in the area the fight happened. It’s a brilliant scheme but has far more applicants than places, meaning some less academic kids are forced to stay at school when they’d rather be learning a vocation or trade at a specialist college.

leedscitycollege.ac.uk/14-16-skills-development-programme/

Our education system needs to change, more colleges like this are needed asap. As someone said upthread, you can’t force a square peg into a round hole.

I asked on here about behaviour in class a couple of weeks ago and was accused of being a journo

We get physical fights often at primary. Behaviour comes from home for many - meeting with parents is usually illuminating as it shows the values the child has been brought up with. It's not to do with how rich or poor you are. There's a lot of arrogance, a lack of respect, parents with chips on their shoulders from their own school experiences. There's some parents whose idea of looking after kids is sticking them on a device so they are quiet. The kids then can't cope if they are bored and play up.

Young kids being allowed on social media just stokes the fires, which then spill out once they are back in school. The amount of time staff spend sorting out disputes is astronomical.

SEN provision and support is inadequate in some schools and a cut back on support staff means those with SEN can be left frustrated and emotionally unable to regulate.

I've intervened in fights, I've evacuated classes. Some days are tough.

The amount of time staff spend sorting out disputes is astronomical

Just highlighting that bit, totally agree.

Most of the kids causing issues are generally NT kids - not SEN kids, yet they are mostly effected by all the chaos.

Sorry, I was referring to secondary schools. I'm sure hitting is more common across the spectrum in primary.

For people wondering why there aren't more exclusions or pupils being sent to PRUs. It's really a combination of factors. Firstly, a school cannot just exclude a pupil with no alternative provision, they have to make arrangements to educate them.

However, the alternative provisions available for violent pupils are limited because a) it used to be that it was only 1 or 2 pupils in a year group who were violent - now it's 20-30. There isn't the alternative provision available for them all. b) because they have to prioritise the very worst "offenders", pupils aren't removed for a very long time and school's requests for a place for a certain pupil are often rejected the first few times (at least). c) it's very, very, very expensive for a school to pay for a pupil to go to a PRU - and that money comes from the budget to fund the education of the other pupils.

So, if they sent 1/6 of the school (all the violent pupils) to the PRU (even in an imaginary world where there are enough places available), it would use up the school's entire budget - they wouldn't be able to pay for anything for any other pupils (no staff, no books, no exams, no heating etc).

Moreover, it's a really long process to remove a child and involves the whole appeals process from the parents too. By the time the whole process has been followed, the pupil will have been in school for years and years. This doesn't even take into account for the added complexities of when the pupil has special consideration (for example if they have SEN or difficulties at home etc).

This is all with reference to my experience in secondary, I don't know anything about primary.

This ☝️

Awful. Behaviour seems to be getting worse. Sounds like we need more male teachers and maybe even security guards!

It’s isn’t male teachers they need - it’s decent father figures.

I remember years ago at school, a teacher being crushed between two locker blocks and robbed by a pupil. She suffered a broken arm and several broken ribs I believe. One of the times my mum was expelled was for attempting to drown a teacher.

It's shit, but not new, nor in my experience shocking. Just horrible.

There should be an absolute zero tolerance policy for people like that. Immediate exclusion permanently. They need to lower the threshold for taking drastic action. We pander and tiptoe round and make excuses for that kind of behaviour- in no other career would you be expected to put up with the risk of harm.
Regardless of background, SEN etc if a child is physically violent with a teacher they should be removed permanently.