Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

*Graphic Image* to ask what you think about the Carolyn Bryant Donham case?

153 replies

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 11:46

Have you seen this in the news? I have been reading about it and was wondering what the MN hive mind thought.

I'm sure you've all heard this awful story, but incase you haven't, Carolyn Bryant Donham was a white woman who, aged 22, was whistled at (and apparently also grabbed) by a 14 year old African American boy named Emmett Till in a store in Mississippi in 1955. (In her own memoir, she claims she called for help but there were apparently no witnesses in the store who heard her call.)

Emmett Till was kidnapped at gunpoint from his bed by the woman's husband and brother in law, who tortured and murdered Till before dumping his body in a river. It's a truly heartbreaking and just hideous story. The story is that witnesses heard a woman's voice (supposedly Carolyn's) identifying Emmett, saying, "That's him" from a car before he was taken away and killed.

The two men were acquitted of murder, but admitted to the killing in a paid interview later, as they couldn't be prosecuted having been found innocent already.

Carolyn Bryant Donham is now around 88 years old. Her whereabouts are unknown. The story seems to be a little hazy, with popular opinion being that Carolyn later admitted that Emmett never touched her (as this was claimed by a biographer of hers), although this is denied by both Carolyn and also the FBI who said that this was never admitted. Carolyn, in her own autobiography, stands by her story and the FBI have said that she never changed her story.

In Carolyn's autobiography, she claims to have had no idea what her husband and brother in law planned to do Emmett. She says she told them they'd got the wrong boy in an attempt to make them take him home. She says she feels like a victim too, in a way, because her life was changed forever by what happened. She says that she'd prayed every day for Emmett's family.

Family of Emmett Till and other campaigners have since discovered a 67 year old arrest warrant for Carolyn that was never served. They are now trying to find her to serve it to her, and are demanding that the police take action.

Protestors recently stormed a retirement home in large numbers trying to find Carolyn to serve her the arrest warrant. They are searching for her still, but apparently can't find her. Carolyn's family have remained silent, but a friend of the family has said that she's in very ill health, blind, and even if the papers were served to her, she'd be dead before it went to trial.

My question is - how do you feel about this? On the one hand, I understand the desire for justice to be served. This case is absolutely heartbreaking and disgusting. On the other hand, it reminds me a little of the arresting of guards in their 90s, who had worked at concentration camps during World War 2. While a few top Nazis were executed or imprisoned after the war, a number of people who did far more hideous things were free to live normal lives, like the many Nazi scientists, engineers and technicians who were given government jobs in the USA after the war due to their skill and knowledge. Many years later, when people were hungry for justice, they went after the only living people left. It's like needing SOMEONE to be punished because this thing is too hideous to go unpunished. It's almost unbearable for it to go unpunished. But the actual perpetrators aren't around anymore to be punished.

I also wonder whether, even if Carolyn did point out Emmett, she has actually committed a crime if she claims that she had no idea what her husband and brother in law planned to do? I'm not sure about American law but I don't know what that crime would be. I also wonder whether it would actually be justice for her to be punished while his actual killers lived normal lives and died peacefully without ever facing punishment. Would it really be justice or would it just be 'an eye for an eye' - like, SOMEONE has to pay for this.

What do you think?

OP posts:
Skinnermarink · 16/07/2022 11:51

I think I heard on a true crime podcast once that it would make her a murder suspect because someone was murdered as a result of her actions. There was a case where a woman had a man rob her ex-boyfriend’s house. The ex ended up getting shot and dying. That apparently was not part of the original plan at all. But the woman got done for murder just the same, even though she wasn’t there and she didn’t physically commit murder.

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 12:04

Skinnermarink · 16/07/2022 11:51

I think I heard on a true crime podcast once that it would make her a murder suspect because someone was murdered as a result of her actions. There was a case where a woman had a man rob her ex-boyfriend’s house. The ex ended up getting shot and dying. That apparently was not part of the original plan at all. But the woman got done for murder just the same, even though she wasn’t there and she didn’t physically commit murder.

Oh really! That's really interesting. But then, I suppose the woman who had someone rob her ex's home was already committing a crime? Whereas in the Emmett Till case, Carolyn could state that she just mentioned it to her husband, but had no clue what he would do and no desire for him to commit a crime. I wonder if intention makes any kind of difference?

It's awful that the men who did it admitted it but weren't able to be prosecuted. On the one hand, I think, 1950s wife has no control over what her husband does and might even be afraid of him. There are claims that he was abusive and she did later divorce him.

On the other hand, she did stick with him through the trial and seemed happy when he was acquitted.

It's just generally awful in every way.

OP posts:
RedHelenB · 16/07/2022 12:10

The book Ghosts being read in secondary schools now refers to this case . It was published 2018 If she has broken the law fair enough to prosecute but it does seem wrong if the actual murderers get off Scott free
Apparently she says he didn't deserve what happened to him.

Skinnermarink · 16/07/2022 12:12

The laws vary totally from state to state too so it’s hard to know. I don’t think we ever will in this case. Indeed very sad. I wonder if she has changed her name, as she’s so elderly there’s probably not much footprint for her out there. And it would be fairly easy to assume another identity if no one knows what you look like old.

Goawayquickly · 16/07/2022 12:14

Mississippi 1955 I’d say she knew exactly what would happen to the child. His torture and death were beyond brutal. His mother had his coffin open to show his terrible disfigurement. I have zero sympathy for Bryant whatsoever regardless of her age and health.

Vikinga · 16/07/2022 12:22

I don't care if she's old and ill, she should be tried. I have a 13 year old child and if they did that to her because she looked or whistled at someone, or for any reason I would want some kind of justice.

How grown men could do that to anyone, let alone a child.

Skinnermarink · 16/07/2022 12:23

His mum thought it might have been a huge misunderstanding, the whistling- she’d taught him to whistle to help him overcome a slight stutter before trying the words again.

Vikinga · 16/07/2022 12:26

I've just googled and seen photos of his sweet face and photos of the vile bastards who did this to him. How can anyone do that? How could they have gotten away with that?

Herbaceousborder · 16/07/2022 12:29

Racism, chauvinism, violence all thrown into the mix.What a terrible death for that child. If anyone knew they'd contributed to the murder of a child and had to live with for 60+years I suspect that they've been punished all their lives.

YouCantSpellAmericaWithoutErica · 16/07/2022 12:38

Whatever that poor boy did (assuming he actually did anything wrong- many people who were around at the time claim he didn’t do anything wrong at all) this woman has some nerve saying she “didn’t know what would happen to him” at the hands of the men in her life when they caught up with him. It was Mississippi in 1955 ffs. She must have fucking known her husband and the rest weren’t going to just sit him down with a cuppa and have a wee chat with him about respecting boundaries. It was always going end in certain horrible, painful death for Emmett Till after an allegation like that. The photo of his open casket on his wiki page is horrifying.

ClaudineClare · 16/07/2022 12:40

Goawayquickly · 16/07/2022 12:14

Mississippi 1955 I’d say she knew exactly what would happen to the child. His torture and death were beyond brutal. His mother had his coffin open to show his terrible disfigurement. I have zero sympathy for Bryant whatsoever regardless of her age and health.

I agree.

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 12:41

Don't get me wrong, I think the perpetrators deserve the worst possible punishment. It's sickening that they got off free and were able to live out their lives.

I'm just wondering whether a) Carolyn legally actually committed a crime that she could even be punished for and b) Whether her being punished at this age, in frail health, while the actual murderers lived happy carefree lives and died peacefully, is any kind of justice at all?

As a PP said, I have kids too and if anyone did this to them I'd murder them myself. All of them, her included, probably. The whole case is absolutely heartbreaking.

But if she really is a victim of abuse, as she claims, is it really justice for her to be punished at all, let alone aged 88 and almost dead.

OP posts:
YouCantSpellAmericaWithoutErica · 16/07/2022 12:42

Herbaceousborder · 16/07/2022 12:29

Racism, chauvinism, violence all thrown into the mix.What a terrible death for that child. If anyone knew they'd contributed to the murder of a child and had to live with for 60+years I suspect that they've been punished all their lives.

Nah. Not like Emmett and many other people of colour like him suffered. It’s incomparable.

They're still putting Nazi guards on trial who are even older than this woman for what they took part in. Assuming she is an accessory to this murder she absolutely should be held accountable for it, even now.

ClaudineClare · 16/07/2022 12:48

I'm just wondering whether a) Carolyn legally actually committed a crime that she could even be punished for and b) Whether her being punished at this age, in frail health, while the actual murderers lived happy carefree lives and died peacefully, is any kind of justice at all?

She incited murder. As a pp said, she would have known exactly what would happen to Emmett Till when she told her husband. I don't care how old she is. My sympathies are with the poor child and his family.

RJnomore1 · 16/07/2022 12:49

Goawayquickly · 16/07/2022 12:14

Mississippi 1955 I’d say she knew exactly what would happen to the child. His torture and death were beyond brutal. His mother had his coffin open to show his terrible disfigurement. I have zero sympathy for Bryant whatsoever regardless of her age and health.

Exactly this. You have to look at the social context. She knew identifying him was as good as signing his death warrant. She is as guilty as if she killed him herself. Age is no excuse.

This is quite informative about lynching in the American south naacp.org/find-resources/history-explained/history-lynching-america

If you want to see how badly they beat him the photos of emmett in his coffin are easily found online. His mother wanted people to see them. He was 14. He was in a strange town. He was dragged from his family’s home and beaten to death by at least two adult men. And a white woman accusing a black male of sexual assault knew exactly what would happen.

ClaudineClare · 16/07/2022 12:52

Also, she must have actively identified Emmett to his murderers-he was a visitor to the area. Why did she do that if she didn't want him to be hurt?

ClaudineClare · 16/07/2022 12:53

RJnomore1 already said that, I was too slow posting...

alonglongshot · 16/07/2022 12:54

RedHelenB · 16/07/2022 12:10

The book Ghosts being read in secondary schools now refers to this case . It was published 2018 If she has broken the law fair enough to prosecute but it does seem wrong if the actual murderers get off Scott free
Apparently she says he didn't deserve what happened to him.

@RedHelenB

Do you mind telling me the name and author of this. I'd be interested in reading that.

ComDummings · 16/07/2022 12:56

She knew exactly what would have happened to Emmett. Yes she should be tried, it doesn’t matter how old she is.

HRTQueen · 16/07/2022 13:00

Goawayquickly · 16/07/2022 12:14

Mississippi 1955 I’d say she knew exactly what would happen to the child. His torture and death were beyond brutal. His mother had his coffin open to show his terrible disfigurement. I have zero sympathy for Bryant whatsoever regardless of her age and health.

Absolutely agree

what about the pain and the never ending grief Emmett Till family have been through

whynotwhatknot · 16/07/2022 13:01

i think she should be tried but i dont agree with them storming in to old peoples homes to find her scaring the living shit out of the residents

ComDummings · 16/07/2022 13:03

whynotwhatknot · 16/07/2022 13:01

i think she should be tried but i dont agree with them storming in to old peoples homes to find her scaring the living shit out of the residents

That is true

RJnomore1 · 16/07/2022 13:05

Yes I agree with that too, the whole things been handled appallingly all the way through and sounds like it still is

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 14:14

whynotwhatknot · 16/07/2022 13:01

i think she should be tried but i dont agree with them storming in to old peoples homes to find her scaring the living shit out of the residents

Yes, this too.

I saw a photo from this, there's an elderly resident in a wheelchair surrounded by an angry mob looking quite distressed and confused. It's not exactly the best way to handle it, although of course emotions are high surrounding this case.

OP posts:
MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 14:25

ClaudineClare · 16/07/2022 12:52

Also, she must have actively identified Emmett to his murderers-he was a visitor to the area. Why did she do that if she didn't want him to be hurt?

I don't know. Apparently her husband owned the store that this happened in. If he really was abusive and violent, perhaps she thought she'd better say something first, in case someone else did and she suffered?

Alternatively, she could have been pissed off with the kid/a massive racist and just wanted him hurt.

I guess we will never know.

I don't know much about how the American legal system works but I'm pretty sure that in the UK she wouldn't be found guilty of much - I mean, can it be proven beyond reasonable doubt that she intended his death? I think not, so at least in the UK it would be impossible to really charge her. If someone wolf whistled at me, I'd probably tell my husband out of disgust. Most women I know would mention it to their partners out of outrage/just general grumbling. So it would be a huge leap to then assume that the mere mentioning of this was participating in his murder, which isn't the next logical step at all.

Another awful thing that I read was that Emmett's mother had taught him to whistle before speaking, he had a stutter and it helped him to overcome the stutter if he whistled first. So the initial whistle could have been totally misunderstood in the first place. (In which case, she must have been lying about being grabbed by him?)

OP posts: