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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

*Graphic Image* to ask what you think about the Carolyn Bryant Donham case?

153 replies

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 11:46

Have you seen this in the news? I have been reading about it and was wondering what the MN hive mind thought.

I'm sure you've all heard this awful story, but incase you haven't, Carolyn Bryant Donham was a white woman who, aged 22, was whistled at (and apparently also grabbed) by a 14 year old African American boy named Emmett Till in a store in Mississippi in 1955. (In her own memoir, she claims she called for help but there were apparently no witnesses in the store who heard her call.)

Emmett Till was kidnapped at gunpoint from his bed by the woman's husband and brother in law, who tortured and murdered Till before dumping his body in a river. It's a truly heartbreaking and just hideous story. The story is that witnesses heard a woman's voice (supposedly Carolyn's) identifying Emmett, saying, "That's him" from a car before he was taken away and killed.

The two men were acquitted of murder, but admitted to the killing in a paid interview later, as they couldn't be prosecuted having been found innocent already.

Carolyn Bryant Donham is now around 88 years old. Her whereabouts are unknown. The story seems to be a little hazy, with popular opinion being that Carolyn later admitted that Emmett never touched her (as this was claimed by a biographer of hers), although this is denied by both Carolyn and also the FBI who said that this was never admitted. Carolyn, in her own autobiography, stands by her story and the FBI have said that she never changed her story.

In Carolyn's autobiography, she claims to have had no idea what her husband and brother in law planned to do Emmett. She says she told them they'd got the wrong boy in an attempt to make them take him home. She says she feels like a victim too, in a way, because her life was changed forever by what happened. She says that she'd prayed every day for Emmett's family.

Family of Emmett Till and other campaigners have since discovered a 67 year old arrest warrant for Carolyn that was never served. They are now trying to find her to serve it to her, and are demanding that the police take action.

Protestors recently stormed a retirement home in large numbers trying to find Carolyn to serve her the arrest warrant. They are searching for her still, but apparently can't find her. Carolyn's family have remained silent, but a friend of the family has said that she's in very ill health, blind, and even if the papers were served to her, she'd be dead before it went to trial.

My question is - how do you feel about this? On the one hand, I understand the desire for justice to be served. This case is absolutely heartbreaking and disgusting. On the other hand, it reminds me a little of the arresting of guards in their 90s, who had worked at concentration camps during World War 2. While a few top Nazis were executed or imprisoned after the war, a number of people who did far more hideous things were free to live normal lives, like the many Nazi scientists, engineers and technicians who were given government jobs in the USA after the war due to their skill and knowledge. Many years later, when people were hungry for justice, they went after the only living people left. It's like needing SOMEONE to be punished because this thing is too hideous to go unpunished. It's almost unbearable for it to go unpunished. But the actual perpetrators aren't around anymore to be punished.

I also wonder whether, even if Carolyn did point out Emmett, she has actually committed a crime if she claims that she had no idea what her husband and brother in law planned to do? I'm not sure about American law but I don't know what that crime would be. I also wonder whether it would actually be justice for her to be punished while his actual killers lived normal lives and died peacefully without ever facing punishment. Would it really be justice or would it just be 'an eye for an eye' - like, SOMEONE has to pay for this.

What do you think?

OP posts:
RhannionKPSS · 18/07/2022 11:32

CanaryShoulderedThorn · 17/07/2022 07:53

@HTH1 Thank God times have changed

Have they really though?
A young mixed race boy feom the wrong end of town found dead in a storm drain in Northern Ireland and nothing is done about it. 😥

Of course this woman should ve brought to justice, age/illness is no defence.

Totally agree, Noah deserves justice, as Emmett Till deserves justice no matter the passing of time.

Onlyhuman123 · 18/07/2022 12:07

I'm just wondering whether a) Carolyn legally actually committed a crime that she could even be punished for and b) Whether her being punished at this age, in frail health, while the actual murderers lived happy carefree lives and died peacefully, is any kind of justice at all?

Guessing that if they've just found an arrest warrant for her then there must have been some evidence for the warrant to have been written so therefore yes, she likely committed a crime.

She knew what would happen the minute she opened her trap to her husband. She knew that lad was going to be killed. She incited her husband just by telling him. So yeah, she's as guilty as he is/was. But she's lived her life now whereas Till lost his and his poor mother also lost hers in more ways than one. Very sad.

KisstheTeapot14 · 18/07/2022 12:41

Thanks for starting the post OP, I had never heard of the case, and it is a distressing and important one we should all know about.

Beyond shocking. That poor young boy and his family. So sad about the whistling and the stammer.

I am always glad when war criminals or long ago murderers are brought to trial (there was a man this week going before court as he has been accused of killing his wife and hiding her body on his farm). I'm glad people can't hide forever from what they have done in this life. They should be held accountable. The account of that 1950's court is very chilling.

Perhaps this woman in America won't go before court, but I hope she has fully lived with the consequences of her actions that day. It must have haunted her - surely? No direct justice for the family and the community but a life sentence in its own way.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 18/07/2022 16:22

Everybody's feelings are impacted by their personals experiences so my feelings are in no way 'right' or better or more important than other peoples feelings but fwiw

  1. I am aware that many men are possessive and jealous types who 'just don't like other people touching my things' to quote Moulin Rouge. I have seen this triggered by eye contact and innocent verbal exchanges. It doesn't always take a lot.
  2. This would be made worse, in a racist's mind, for the interloper to be 'racially inferior' and therefore for the husband to be in a murderous rage over virtually nothing seems totally plausible.
  3. The wife would be under considerable pressure to emphasise that she had done nothing 'wrong' nothing to 'encourage' his friendly / informal / overly friendly / whatever attitude or behaviour. She would therefore quite reasonably be the last person who would have been able to defend the boy, and attempts to try could easily have led to her being beaten possibly to death.
  4. After the is it appropriate to say lynching? She would have remained under tremendous pressure to show that it wasn't her fault she hadn't encouraged etc. to a much wider audience. She would also have been under pressure to defend and support her husband by showing the boys actions in as negative a light as possible.

So her choices seem to have been being blamed by her husband/ relatives / society for Emmett's 'behaviour' with the violence and shunning that that might entail. OR to be blamed for her Husband and Brother-in-law's decision to murder Emmett. Neither one would be appealing.

OP brought up the Nazi regime, so I hope you'll forgive me but to me the equivalent is a downstairs neighbour who doesn't stand up to the regime and points out a young Jewish boy to be taken away by his murderers. Nothing to be proud of certainly, the worst thing she maybe ever did in her life, very possibly. Worth putting her on trial at the age of 88 I wouldn't have thought so...

Seems to me to be a case of WABFE - Compare it with a hypothetical where the husband and BIL are driving around looking for Emmett and a guy outside a soda shop points him out and says that's him over there on the corner. BUT disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer that's based on my understanding of the case which could be wrong

JellyBellyNelly · 18/07/2022 16:24

Goawayquickly · 16/07/2022 12:14

Mississippi 1955 I’d say she knew exactly what would happen to the child. His torture and death were beyond brutal. His mother had his coffin open to show his terrible disfigurement. I have zero sympathy for Bryant whatsoever regardless of her age and health.

I read an article about just recently.

It was horrific and if she’s still alive she should be charged.

RJnomore1 · 18/07/2022 18:56

All very well and good For you to make excuses @howdoesatoastermaketoast but her husband was not there when emmett went into the shop. Nor was anyone else.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 18/07/2022 20:07

@RJnomore1 thank you for the correction. I had misunderstood and thought the husband had seen something that made him jealous.
So (and please do correct me if I'm still wrong)
The level of guilt she would bear would rest on the fact that she said something about Emmett's behaviour, which was somewhere on the range of : an ok thing for her to do? / not an ok thing to do, because she knew bad stuff would happen? / a racist lie because she was offended by perfectly normal behaviour ? / an explicit or implied request for Emmett to be killed based on the prevailing culture of the time?

I am asd so I don't always get the yes but she knew that he knew that they knew type chains of logic. It does seem reasonable to assume based on the place era and observed behaviours that she was very racist so is it your logic that she got offended with a child over nothing and (like hiring a contract killer) manipulated her husband to kill him which she could have easily stopped had she not pointed him out?

RJnomore1 · 18/07/2022 20:36

Trying reading this for some context

allthatsinteresting.com/carolyn-bryant

she lied repeatedly

SummerWhisper · 18/07/2022 20:55

I have only ever viewed it as a more than likely racist white woman being repulsed by a sweet young black kid whistling to try and steady his speech and being totally repulsed by it because of her racist brain. I can only think that she knew exactly what would happen and I'm sorry but I do not have a single humane feeling towards her.

Vikinga · 18/07/2022 22:16

Lalosalamanca · 16/07/2022 17:14

There's not a cell in my body that believes a black male teenager in Mississippi 1955 flirted with a white woman. Noway. He knew better than that.

And equally I will never believe the white woman's claims of ignorance. She knew very well what her husband would do.

The whole story just makes me feel deeply disturbed and utterly sad.

As a child he contracted polio, which led to a speech impediment. His mother taught him how to whistle, to help him overcome his stutter.

She knew full well what she was doing that vile bitch.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 19/07/2022 00:34

RJnomore1 · 18/07/2022 20:36

Trying reading this for some context

allthatsinteresting.com/carolyn-bryant

she lied repeatedly

"Indianola, where Carolyn Bryant Donham was from, was the base of the Citizens’ Councils, which was a network of white supremacist organizations that opposed integration.
Money, where the couple’s store was opened, was in Mississippi, which had the highest number of lynchings in America from 1882 to 1968."

It's hard to think well of any (white) person in town frankly

Shiloh139 · 19/07/2022 00:45

Goawayquickly · 16/07/2022 12:14

Mississippi 1955 I’d say she knew exactly what would happen to the child. His torture and death were beyond brutal. His mother had his coffin open to show his terrible disfigurement. I have zero sympathy for Bryant whatsoever regardless of her age and health.

Absolutely this. There's no way she wouldn't have known what the ramifications for the boy would have been. She might not have expected him to be killed but she must have known he would be very seriously harmed physically and potentially his family too. This was a time in the southern states where African American men were having their genitals cut off and shoved in their mouths before they were hanged, if they were accused of disrespecting or touching or attempting to touch white women.

MiriMollyMartha · 19/07/2022 04:32

This reply has been deleted

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MiriMollyMartha · 19/07/2022 04:33

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hesttreat · 19/07/2022 08:27

Herbaceousborder · 16/07/2022 12:29

Racism, chauvinism, violence all thrown into the mix.What a terrible death for that child. If anyone knew they'd contributed to the murder of a child and had to live with for 60+years I suspect that they've been punished all their lives.

How have they been punished all their lives? They haven't!

SuperCamp · 19/07/2022 09:14

ReginaGeorgeismyname · 16/07/2022 22:21

Your post is extremely offensive. Neither myself nor the other poster suggested Emmett Till was warned by his family for his behaviour due to him being poorly behaved. It was quite obviously in the context of the deep south being a dangerous place.

You've come here and started an argument where there was none. How dare you suggest my post was racist. How bloody dare you.

Yes, they have implicated ‘his behaviour’. You did when you explained his ‘behaviour’ as coming from the North and that’s why he might have… And @alphapie ‘s post implies that he was warned ‘by his own family’ and the way both your posts read is that the family warned him about HIS behaviour being a problem, rather than warning him about the behaviour of white Mississippi citizens.

You probably didn’t intend it but it is the way it reads.

SuperCamp · 19/07/2022 09:43

We are 2 summers on from the murder of George Floyd. The history of racism in the US is visceral, genocidal, murderous. From slavery to lynchings to present day police brutality and states full of white supremacists who carry guns as a way of life

If there is evidence that implicated her in a basis for a trial she should be tried. An FBI officer who oversaw the first review (in Mississippi, 20 years ago… do we think it was free of racist bias?) believes that the new evidence (unpublished memoir) should be put before the grand jury.

Mamie Till Mobley made the bravest of statements in exposing what his murderers had done: made his murder a step in the civil rights movement. It feels like a huge betrayal if any legal potential for the trial of Donham is fudged or smudged because of her age, because she wasn’t the main perpetrator or whatever.

phishy · 19/07/2022 09:59

alphapie · 16/07/2022 18:30

So you comment on an issue with such surety but haven't bothered to research it.

The mind boggles, ignorance personified.

Well, I have researched it and Donham admitted he never flirted with her.

You seem to be on every thread, justifying racism and misogyny.

phishy · 19/07/2022 10:02

SuperCamp · 19/07/2022 09:14

Yes, they have implicated ‘his behaviour’. You did when you explained his ‘behaviour’ as coming from the North and that’s why he might have… And @alphapie ‘s post implies that he was warned ‘by his own family’ and the way both your posts read is that the family warned him about HIS behaviour being a problem, rather than warning him about the behaviour of white Mississippi citizens.

You probably didn’t intend it but it is the way it reads.

@alphapie also never posted any evidence that Emmett's family spoke to him about his behaviour. Because there is none.

MyrrAgain · 20/07/2022 22:08

Oh. I see my post about antisemitism has been deleted again because OP can't have anyone pointing this out! Guess I'll have to post again. And again. 🤷🏻‍♀️

MyrrAgain · 20/07/2022 22:09

...Good old mumsnet deleting anything about antisemitism again though. So I'll repeat myself here. Nothing compares to the atrocities of the Holocaust. Don't ignorantly use it as a yard stick to measure things against then trying to silence this and have it deleted. The murder and attempted annihilation of a people aren't anyone's to use.

Emarjha · 20/07/2022 22:30

I think it would be very difficult to give her a fair trial. Social rules and laws regarding race have changed so much and she would inevitably be tried by a jury of people who have modern values, not a jury of people who have the values that people had at the time the crime was committed. Any witnesses or alibis will be long dead and unable to testify, including the two murderers and the witness who placed her at the scene. The accused herself is probably the only one who still survives to tell her version of what happened, and there’s nobody left alive to contradict her.

You can’t compare it to Nazi trials for which there was a paper trail linking those people to their jobs and the offences they committed. This sort of trial would be based on circumstantial evidence and witness testimony which is virtually impossible to gather decades later.

Not saying that she isn’t guilty. Just that the case is virtually impossible to try in court when so much time has passed.

Redbone · 20/07/2022 22:34

Donham knew exactly what she was doing, such a vile, evil woman. I would love her to be brought to justice but it will never happen. So indicative of the USA then, and to a certain extent, now.

Redbone · 20/07/2022 22:37

Just to add to my comment, I am white and of mixed European heritage.

Octomore · 20/07/2022 23:10

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 18/07/2022 16:22

Everybody's feelings are impacted by their personals experiences so my feelings are in no way 'right' or better or more important than other peoples feelings but fwiw

  1. I am aware that many men are possessive and jealous types who 'just don't like other people touching my things' to quote Moulin Rouge. I have seen this triggered by eye contact and innocent verbal exchanges. It doesn't always take a lot.
  2. This would be made worse, in a racist's mind, for the interloper to be 'racially inferior' and therefore for the husband to be in a murderous rage over virtually nothing seems totally plausible.
  3. The wife would be under considerable pressure to emphasise that she had done nothing 'wrong' nothing to 'encourage' his friendly / informal / overly friendly / whatever attitude or behaviour. She would therefore quite reasonably be the last person who would have been able to defend the boy, and attempts to try could easily have led to her being beaten possibly to death.
  4. After the is it appropriate to say lynching? She would have remained under tremendous pressure to show that it wasn't her fault she hadn't encouraged etc. to a much wider audience. She would also have been under pressure to defend and support her husband by showing the boys actions in as negative a light as possible.

So her choices seem to have been being blamed by her husband/ relatives / society for Emmett's 'behaviour' with the violence and shunning that that might entail. OR to be blamed for her Husband and Brother-in-law's decision to murder Emmett. Neither one would be appealing.

OP brought up the Nazi regime, so I hope you'll forgive me but to me the equivalent is a downstairs neighbour who doesn't stand up to the regime and points out a young Jewish boy to be taken away by his murderers. Nothing to be proud of certainly, the worst thing she maybe ever did in her life, very possibly. Worth putting her on trial at the age of 88 I wouldn't have thought so...

Seems to me to be a case of WABFE - Compare it with a hypothetical where the husband and BIL are driving around looking for Emmett and a guy outside a soda shop points him out and says that's him over there on the corner. BUT disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer that's based on my understanding of the case which could be wrong

I'm actually open mouthed at this. I have no words.

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