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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

*Graphic Image* to ask what you think about the Carolyn Bryant Donham case?

153 replies

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 11:46

Have you seen this in the news? I have been reading about it and was wondering what the MN hive mind thought.

I'm sure you've all heard this awful story, but incase you haven't, Carolyn Bryant Donham was a white woman who, aged 22, was whistled at (and apparently also grabbed) by a 14 year old African American boy named Emmett Till in a store in Mississippi in 1955. (In her own memoir, she claims she called for help but there were apparently no witnesses in the store who heard her call.)

Emmett Till was kidnapped at gunpoint from his bed by the woman's husband and brother in law, who tortured and murdered Till before dumping his body in a river. It's a truly heartbreaking and just hideous story. The story is that witnesses heard a woman's voice (supposedly Carolyn's) identifying Emmett, saying, "That's him" from a car before he was taken away and killed.

The two men were acquitted of murder, but admitted to the killing in a paid interview later, as they couldn't be prosecuted having been found innocent already.

Carolyn Bryant Donham is now around 88 years old. Her whereabouts are unknown. The story seems to be a little hazy, with popular opinion being that Carolyn later admitted that Emmett never touched her (as this was claimed by a biographer of hers), although this is denied by both Carolyn and also the FBI who said that this was never admitted. Carolyn, in her own autobiography, stands by her story and the FBI have said that she never changed her story.

In Carolyn's autobiography, she claims to have had no idea what her husband and brother in law planned to do Emmett. She says she told them they'd got the wrong boy in an attempt to make them take him home. She says she feels like a victim too, in a way, because her life was changed forever by what happened. She says that she'd prayed every day for Emmett's family.

Family of Emmett Till and other campaigners have since discovered a 67 year old arrest warrant for Carolyn that was never served. They are now trying to find her to serve it to her, and are demanding that the police take action.

Protestors recently stormed a retirement home in large numbers trying to find Carolyn to serve her the arrest warrant. They are searching for her still, but apparently can't find her. Carolyn's family have remained silent, but a friend of the family has said that she's in very ill health, blind, and even if the papers were served to her, she'd be dead before it went to trial.

My question is - how do you feel about this? On the one hand, I understand the desire for justice to be served. This case is absolutely heartbreaking and disgusting. On the other hand, it reminds me a little of the arresting of guards in their 90s, who had worked at concentration camps during World War 2. While a few top Nazis were executed or imprisoned after the war, a number of people who did far more hideous things were free to live normal lives, like the many Nazi scientists, engineers and technicians who were given government jobs in the USA after the war due to their skill and knowledge. Many years later, when people were hungry for justice, they went after the only living people left. It's like needing SOMEONE to be punished because this thing is too hideous to go unpunished. It's almost unbearable for it to go unpunished. But the actual perpetrators aren't around anymore to be punished.

I also wonder whether, even if Carolyn did point out Emmett, she has actually committed a crime if she claims that she had no idea what her husband and brother in law planned to do? I'm not sure about American law but I don't know what that crime would be. I also wonder whether it would actually be justice for her to be punished while his actual killers lived normal lives and died peacefully without ever facing punishment. Would it really be justice or would it just be 'an eye for an eye' - like, SOMEONE has to pay for this.

What do you think?

OP posts:
HTH1 · 16/07/2022 21:49

Such a very sad case from a brutal time. Thank God times have changed.

I don’t think Carolyn would be prosecuted for the reasons PP mentioned (case already reinvestigated and dropped due to doubt) and because prosecuting someone who is very elderly and probably dying is unlikely to be in the public interest. Whether she has any moral culpability is not in doubt.

ReginaGeorgeismyname · 16/07/2022 22:21

DaniRabbity · 16/07/2022 20:12

I have read up on this case extensively, and everything his mother said points to her warning her son because she knew how extremely dangerous the Deep South was for black boys, not because her son's "behaviour" was a concern.

You have to understand how many thousands of black people were murdered in cold blood, and how much power and control the KKK had in those days - black people were openly hunted and killed for sport, for literally no reason.

Simply existing while black was very very dangerous.

The posters claiming the fact his mother warned him suggests he was badly behaved are very obviously white and ignorant about racism.

If you look at the actual quotes (including trial testimony) from Emmett Till's mother, nothing indicates she had concerns specifically about his behaviour, but over the fact he was entering dangerous territory. She testified that she explicitly told him that if a white person was ever angry at him, he should get on his knees and beg for forgiveness without a thought. Hardly something a mother would say to a teenager she believed to be badly behaved and cheeky!

Plenty of black parents today feel they have no choice but to give their children training on how to stay alive (eg how to handle police persecution, how to handle false allegations from racists) and this training starts in toddlerhood. Even today, black kids are trained how to de-escalate white people's anger.

Emmett Till's mother didn't warn her son because of his behaviour, but because of theirs.

Your post is extremely offensive. Neither myself nor the other poster suggested Emmett Till was warned by his family for his behaviour due to him being poorly behaved. It was quite obviously in the context of the deep south being a dangerous place.

You've come here and started an argument where there was none. How dare you suggest my post was racist. How bloody dare you.

ReginaGeorgeismyname · 16/07/2022 22:28

**You have to understand how many thousands of black people were murdered in cold blood, and how much power and control the KKK had in those days - black people were openly hunted and killed for sport, for literally no reason.

Simply existing while black was very very dangerous.**

And FYI, as a history teacher of 20 years, I have extensive knowledge of this. I most certainly am not ignorant. Hence why I took time to explain to the other poster the significance of Emmett being from Chicago.

Cheeky also does not mean badly behaved..it means can be a bit of a joker in a non threatening way. I never once blamed him for his own death - I was very very clear on that.

You owe me an apology.

RJnomore1 · 16/07/2022 22:33

I’ve just read this which I think is a very god article about the case

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/09/barn-emmett-till-murder/619493/

Icecreamandapplepie · 16/07/2022 22:36

@ReginaGeorgeismyname

The way you word things, Im afraid you do come across as racist.

Your wording is really unfortunate.

You are ruining this thread.

ReginaGeorgeismyname · 16/07/2022 22:41

Icecreamandapplepie · 16/07/2022 22:36

@ReginaGeorgeismyname

The way you word things, Im afraid you do come across as racist.

Your wording is really unfortunate.

You are ruining this thread.

Well that's funny as I am black

Icecreamandapplepie · 16/07/2022 22:42

Like I said, unfortunate wording

ReginaGeorgeismyname · 16/07/2022 22:44

Icecreamandapplepie · 16/07/2022 22:42

Like I said, unfortunate wording

Give an example please

ReginaGeorgeismyname · 16/07/2022 22:53

It's well documented that Emmett was a bit of a joker. It's well documented he came from the North, and as a 14 year old wouldn't necessarily have fully grasped the dangers of the South. I've stated already there can be no excuse for what happened to him. I'm contextualising.

Nothing here is racist.

I'm just going to take my historical knowledge and leave as apparently 'I'm ruining the thread'

MyrrAgain · 16/07/2022 22:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HRTQueen · 16/07/2022 22:58

mmm strange how it’s far more upsetting to be accused of being ignorant of racism (which is a fair point we learn if we don’t experience it) to actual impact of racism has had and still has for young black boys men today in 2022

that is the part of the post you should be upset by reading

and you are owed an apology?

really you can’t make it up

MiriMollyMartha · 17/07/2022 02:08

This reply has been deleted

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MiriMollyMartha · 17/07/2022 02:12

Thank you for everyone who has contributed your thoughts to this! I'm going to leave this conversation now as it's got a bit nasty - i forgot everything on AIBU descends into chaos and arguing! And I can't keep up with it all. But again, thank you to everyone who shared their thoughts and opinions.

OP posts:
DaniRabbity · 17/07/2022 03:08

You've come here and started an argument where there was none. How dare you suggest my post was racist. How bloody dare you.

Go away and stop using such transparent DARVO tactics.

You and alphapie spent two pages bickering with other posters to try to push the idea that Emmett was "cheeky"; " a flirt"; had to be "warned" about his behaviour (all coded language to imply not well behaved), as well as numerous posts from both of you suggesting that a black boy living in the 1950s - a black boy whose own mother said she'd impressed upon him the need to literally drop to his knees for white people - had no idea of the dangers of racism, just because he was from Chicago (Chicago isn't the deep south but 1950s Chicago was hardly some racially integrated paradise).

I don't know what your intention is on trying to move the focus from the behaviour of the people responsible for his death, onto the rumoured behaviour of a LYNCHED CHILD, but I'm not the only one to find it distasteful at best.

You really think the black posters on this board can't see the dog whistles in you insisting on calling a murdered black child "cheeky" and "flirty"?

Or wonder what your and alphapie's agenda is in pushing the debunked claim that he did something that incited his own murder, when every eye witness states it did not happen, and the person who originally made that claim later withdrew it?

Both you and alphapie's posts have directly attacked other posters, and alphapie's posts were very abusive. The only reason they've not been deleted is because of the MN servers being down meaning you can't report posts right now.

DaniRabbity · 17/07/2022 03:08

You owe me an apology

Whistle for it

Badqueeen · 17/07/2022 06:51

Perhaps they should also track down the jury that acquitted the murderers and charge them with perverting the course of justice or whatever the equivalent is in the US.

And yes this old woman should be tracked down and the evidence put to her, and if necessary she should be tried. People shouldn't be storming retirement homes though.

CanaryShoulderedThorn · 17/07/2022 07:53

@HTH1 Thank God times have changed

Have they really though?
A young mixed race boy feom the wrong end of town found dead in a storm drain in Northern Ireland and nothing is done about it. 😥

Of course this woman should ve brought to justice, age/illness is no defence.

RJnomore1 · 17/07/2022 08:14

Badqueeen · 17/07/2022 06:51

Perhaps they should also track down the jury that acquitted the murderers and charge them with perverting the course of justice or whatever the equivalent is in the US.

And yes this old woman should be tracked down and the evidence put to her, and if necessary she should be tried. People shouldn't be storming retirement homes though.

Someone kindly placed a burning cross on the grass outside the jury hotel. Just to remind them what was expected of them in terms of doing their duty.

MyrrAgain · 17/07/2022 09:14

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I read most of it up until that point. And I don't need to because nothing compares and you don't have the right to use the murder of millions of people for some jaunt on mumsnet.

Good old mumsnet deleting anything about antisemitism again though. So I'll repeat myself here. Nothing compares to the atrocities of the Holocaust. Stop ignorantly using it as a yard stick to measure things against then making out like you're right and cancelling my posts. The murder and attempted annihilation of a people aren't yours to use.

TiredYorkshireMam · 17/07/2022 09:56

Skinnermarink · 16/07/2022 12:23

His mum thought it might have been a huge misunderstanding, the whistling- she’d taught him to whistle to help him overcome a slight stutter before trying the words again.

Omg, as if this story wasn't heartbreaking enough Sad

Icecreamandapplepie · 17/07/2022 09:58

@DaniRabbity

I'm white and saw all of what you said.

I'm so sorry there are these people around.

Your post was brilliantly written

Sashimimimi · 17/07/2022 12:17

Well that's funny as I am black

@ReginaGeorgeismyname 🤨

Pancakeorcrepe · 17/07/2022 13:29

What a gorgeous boy he was,a beautiful smile and beautiful eyes.
This is an absolute travesty of justice and yes reparations should be made. It’s very upsetting that the two main perpetrators were not convicted. She absolutely 100% knew what was going to happen once she made the accusation. My heart bleeds for this poor boy and his poor mum.

secular39 · 17/07/2022 17:15

I was going to say maybe they should let it go until I saw the photo of Emmet Till in his coffin... the woman and her husband and her son need to be tried. Stupid woman.

Vates · 17/07/2022 17:26

She has no excuse. She lived in 1955, she knew perfectly well what would happen. Being 88 is ZERO excuse, should be chased into her bloody grave. When you're that awful of a person you don't deserve dignity. She knew what would happen!

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