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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

*Graphic Image* to ask what you think about the Carolyn Bryant Donham case?

153 replies

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 11:46

Have you seen this in the news? I have been reading about it and was wondering what the MN hive mind thought.

I'm sure you've all heard this awful story, but incase you haven't, Carolyn Bryant Donham was a white woman who, aged 22, was whistled at (and apparently also grabbed) by a 14 year old African American boy named Emmett Till in a store in Mississippi in 1955. (In her own memoir, she claims she called for help but there were apparently no witnesses in the store who heard her call.)

Emmett Till was kidnapped at gunpoint from his bed by the woman's husband and brother in law, who tortured and murdered Till before dumping his body in a river. It's a truly heartbreaking and just hideous story. The story is that witnesses heard a woman's voice (supposedly Carolyn's) identifying Emmett, saying, "That's him" from a car before he was taken away and killed.

The two men were acquitted of murder, but admitted to the killing in a paid interview later, as they couldn't be prosecuted having been found innocent already.

Carolyn Bryant Donham is now around 88 years old. Her whereabouts are unknown. The story seems to be a little hazy, with popular opinion being that Carolyn later admitted that Emmett never touched her (as this was claimed by a biographer of hers), although this is denied by both Carolyn and also the FBI who said that this was never admitted. Carolyn, in her own autobiography, stands by her story and the FBI have said that she never changed her story.

In Carolyn's autobiography, she claims to have had no idea what her husband and brother in law planned to do Emmett. She says she told them they'd got the wrong boy in an attempt to make them take him home. She says she feels like a victim too, in a way, because her life was changed forever by what happened. She says that she'd prayed every day for Emmett's family.

Family of Emmett Till and other campaigners have since discovered a 67 year old arrest warrant for Carolyn that was never served. They are now trying to find her to serve it to her, and are demanding that the police take action.

Protestors recently stormed a retirement home in large numbers trying to find Carolyn to serve her the arrest warrant. They are searching for her still, but apparently can't find her. Carolyn's family have remained silent, but a friend of the family has said that she's in very ill health, blind, and even if the papers were served to her, she'd be dead before it went to trial.

My question is - how do you feel about this? On the one hand, I understand the desire for justice to be served. This case is absolutely heartbreaking and disgusting. On the other hand, it reminds me a little of the arresting of guards in their 90s, who had worked at concentration camps during World War 2. While a few top Nazis were executed or imprisoned after the war, a number of people who did far more hideous things were free to live normal lives, like the many Nazi scientists, engineers and technicians who were given government jobs in the USA after the war due to their skill and knowledge. Many years later, when people were hungry for justice, they went after the only living people left. It's like needing SOMEONE to be punished because this thing is too hideous to go unpunished. It's almost unbearable for it to go unpunished. But the actual perpetrators aren't around anymore to be punished.

I also wonder whether, even if Carolyn did point out Emmett, she has actually committed a crime if she claims that she had no idea what her husband and brother in law planned to do? I'm not sure about American law but I don't know what that crime would be. I also wonder whether it would actually be justice for her to be punished while his actual killers lived normal lives and died peacefully without ever facing punishment. Would it really be justice or would it just be 'an eye for an eye' - like, SOMEONE has to pay for this.

What do you think?

OP posts:
alphapie · 16/07/2022 14:27

What do you mean what we think?

No one on here is stupid enough to say 'I think she is great'

Boxowine · 16/07/2022 14:46

Well, I think that the purpose of the criminal justice system is to answer these questions. That's why she should face these inquiries in an official capacity.

If she didn't do anything wrong then she should have nothing to fear. If she is found guilty of anything the judge has the discretion to show her mercy during sentencing, if he wants to take her age into account.

I don't think that justice is being served by choosing to ignore her possible involvement and allowing her to continue to be immune to the repercussions.

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 14:46

alphapie · 16/07/2022 14:27

What do you mean what we think?

No one on here is stupid enough to say 'I think she is great'

What an odd post!

Not really sure how to answer it.

OP posts:
alphapie · 16/07/2022 14:48

@MiriMollyMartha your post, surely you understand what you wanted from it?

There isn't much to think about, the details of the case are pretty clear, anyone who isn't a massive racist will think she is a POS, not really sure what else you want from this

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 14:49

Skinnermarink · 16/07/2022 12:23

His mum thought it might have been a huge misunderstanding, the whistling- she’d taught him to whistle to help him overcome a slight stutter before trying the words again.

Sorry, just saw you'd posted this too. I read this as well. So sad. I can't even imagine how she must have felt. It doesn't even bear thinking about.

OP posts:
Vikinga · 16/07/2022 14:51

RJnomore1 · 16/07/2022 12:49

Exactly this. You have to look at the social context. She knew identifying him was as good as signing his death warrant. She is as guilty as if she killed him herself. Age is no excuse.

This is quite informative about lynching in the American south naacp.org/find-resources/history-explained/history-lynching-america

If you want to see how badly they beat him the photos of emmett in his coffin are easily found online. His mother wanted people to see them. He was 14. He was in a strange town. He was dragged from his family’s home and beaten to death by at least two adult men. And a white woman accusing a black male of sexual assault knew exactly what would happen.

This is what they did to this beautiful boy.

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 14:51

alphapie · 16/07/2022 14:48

@MiriMollyMartha your post, surely you understand what you wanted from it?

There isn't much to think about, the details of the case are pretty clear, anyone who isn't a massive racist will think she is a POS, not really sure what else you want from this

As you can see from my OP, I'm asking what others think about Carolyn being tried now, whether legally she can be held accountable, and whether this would be justice for the crime considering that the murderers have walked free. Didn't realise it was confusing!

If you're implying i'm racist by asking this question, I'm mixed race with black children so please don't. I'm just interested in moral issues and this case in general considering the horror of it all and the lack of justice.

OP posts:
MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 14:52

Vikinga · 16/07/2022 14:51

This is what they did to this beautiful boy.

Yes, I've seen this. It's heartbreaking.

Maybe should ask MN to post a trigger warning to this thread now you've posted this?

OP posts:
MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 14:53

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 14:52

Yes, I've seen this. It's heartbreaking.

Maybe should ask MN to post a trigger warning to this thread now you've posted this?

I don't know how to contact MN to do this though 🤔Can anyone help?

OP posts:
user1471504747 · 16/07/2022 15:02

Bullshit did she not know what she was doing. Yes she should face up to her actions. That’s incredibly unlikely to lead to her being in prison or drastically change her life, but to make it officially clear she should not be seen as an innocent third party to this murder.

RhannionKPSS · 16/07/2022 15:07

There is a drama series out at the moment called Women of the Movement which is about the tragedy of Emmett Till.

Boxowine · 16/07/2022 15:08

I don't think this needs a trigger warning. That image was included in several nationally published magazines when this murder occurred. If people in the nineteen fifties could face it so can everyone else. It is considered to be one of the most important images of and a catalyst to the Civil Rights Movement in the US. It's history.

NotDavidTennant · 16/07/2022 15:23

They are clutching at straws. The case was reinvestigated in the 2000s and a grand jury determined that there wasn't enough evidence to charge Donham. I don't see how finding an extremely old arrest warrant changes things.

ReginaGeorgeismyname · 16/07/2022 15:39

There's a Bob Dylan song about the murder.
I feel she should be held to account. As others have said she knew what her accusations would lead to. I also think the nazi camp guards should stand trial where possible. Time passing doesn't mean we aren't responsible for our actions anymore.

Boxowine · 16/07/2022 15:40

I can't believe MN put a trigger warning on this. His mother held an open casket funeral and allowed the photographs to be published because she wanted the world to see what they did to her son. Why do you want people to hide from it now?

The murder was a major historical event. The coverage of the murder was a major historical event in itself

Putting a trigger warning on this is like putting a trigger warning on the Bateaux Tapestry because it has an image of Harold getting shot in the eye.

Skinnermarink · 16/07/2022 16:55

Jesus, Mumsnet will trigger warning on anything. That’s ridiculous.

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 16:59

Boxowine · 16/07/2022 15:40

I can't believe MN put a trigger warning on this. His mother held an open casket funeral and allowed the photographs to be published because she wanted the world to see what they did to her son. Why do you want people to hide from it now?

The murder was a major historical event. The coverage of the murder was a major historical event in itself

Putting a trigger warning on this is like putting a trigger warning on the Bateaux Tapestry because it has an image of Harold getting shot in the eye.

I'm shocked that i need to explain why a graphic photo of a child's beaten and mutilated corpse might need a trigger warning to be honest...

OP posts:
MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 17:00

NotDavidTennant · 16/07/2022 15:23

They are clutching at straws. The case was reinvestigated in the 2000s and a grand jury determined that there wasn't enough evidence to charge Donham. I don't see how finding an extremely old arrest warrant changes things.

Oh, really! I had no idea about that. I'll read up about it, thank you!

OP posts:
MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 17:01

RhannionKPSS · 16/07/2022 15:07

There is a drama series out at the moment called Women of the Movement which is about the tragedy of Emmett Till.

I haven't seen it, but will check it out, thank you.

OP posts:
Louise0701 · 16/07/2022 17:06

I agree with @Goawayquickly what a vile thing she is. “She said she shouted for help” for a whistle?! I’m mixed race and let’s all be honest; she wouldn’t of shouted for help had a white boy whistled at her. She knew exactly what would happen to this poor, poor boy.
horrific. Find her and try her. I don’t care if she’s blind and unwell. At least she’s alive and has lived a full life; unlike the victim of her actions.

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 17:11

ReginaGeorgeismyname · 16/07/2022 15:39

There's a Bob Dylan song about the murder.
I feel she should be held to account. As others have said she knew what her accusations would lead to. I also think the nazi camp guards should stand trial where possible. Time passing doesn't mean we aren't responsible for our actions anymore.

I think there's some misunderstanding of my intention of posting! I absolutely agree that the prison guards should be punished, but is it really justice when the worse perpetrators have got off free and lived peaceful and happy lives?

Similarly, in this case. Is it any kind of justice when the murderers have lived and died peacefully?

I'll not saying prison guards and Carolyn shouldn't be punished.. I'm asking whether it's legally possible (in Carolyn's case) and also morally is it true justice (in both cases?)

As I said before, I'm a mixed race woman with a black husband and black children and black family. I don't need to be told about the horrors of this case, or about racism.

I'm asking about your opinions on the legality and the morals of it.

And yes, i do believe that a photo of a child's beaten corpse needs a fucking trigger warning, why on earth is this shocking to you? Bloody hell. I can't believe I'm having to sit here and explain why seeing a dead beaten child might trigger and traumatise people. Photos of starved corpses in death camps are history but also pretty fucking traumatic and horrifying for people to witness, especially people who, like me, suffer from anxiety disorders and intrusive thoughts and can be sent into downward spirals fairly easily. It's not hard to figure out?

OP posts:
MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 17:13

Sorry for swearing. I just can't believe that this is something I'm needing to sit and type out, especially as racism is still a big issue today and seeing a child victim of a horrific racist attack might be traumatic, to mothers of black children especially but to all mothers/anyone with a heart in general. Please use your brains.

OP posts:
Lalosalamanca · 16/07/2022 17:14

There's not a cell in my body that believes a black male teenager in Mississippi 1955 flirted with a white woman. Noway. He knew better than that.

And equally I will never believe the white woman's claims of ignorance. She knew very well what her husband would do.

The whole story just makes me feel deeply disturbed and utterly sad.

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 17:19

Lalosalamanca · 16/07/2022 17:14

There's not a cell in my body that believes a black male teenager in Mississippi 1955 flirted with a white woman. Noway. He knew better than that.

And equally I will never believe the white woman's claims of ignorance. She knew very well what her husband would do.

The whole story just makes me feel deeply disturbed and utterly sad.

I think your last line summarises the whole thing.. deeply disturbing and utterly sad. I think it's one of those things that is so horrific that it's almost impossible for anyone to move on from - even those who aren't in any way affected - because seeing something so awful have no justice is unbearable. Even WITH justice with would be horrific. Without it, it's just intolerable.

OP posts:
Thefriendlymoth · 16/07/2022 17:21

Personally, I believe she knew 100% what the consequences of her pointing out that poor boy would be. I do believe she was a racist. There was no justice. Obviously she is too old and too ill for incarceration to act as anything other than a punishment (no rehabilitation/keeping society safe) which usually I would say serves little purpose from a justice system perspective but there is a part of me that feels if it would give even the smallest shred of justice or peace to his family she should face consequences for her actions. Feels a bit too little too late however.

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