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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

*Graphic Image* to ask what you think about the Carolyn Bryant Donham case?

153 replies

MiriMollyMartha · 16/07/2022 11:46

Have you seen this in the news? I have been reading about it and was wondering what the MN hive mind thought.

I'm sure you've all heard this awful story, but incase you haven't, Carolyn Bryant Donham was a white woman who, aged 22, was whistled at (and apparently also grabbed) by a 14 year old African American boy named Emmett Till in a store in Mississippi in 1955. (In her own memoir, she claims she called for help but there were apparently no witnesses in the store who heard her call.)

Emmett Till was kidnapped at gunpoint from his bed by the woman's husband and brother in law, who tortured and murdered Till before dumping his body in a river. It's a truly heartbreaking and just hideous story. The story is that witnesses heard a woman's voice (supposedly Carolyn's) identifying Emmett, saying, "That's him" from a car before he was taken away and killed.

The two men were acquitted of murder, but admitted to the killing in a paid interview later, as they couldn't be prosecuted having been found innocent already.

Carolyn Bryant Donham is now around 88 years old. Her whereabouts are unknown. The story seems to be a little hazy, with popular opinion being that Carolyn later admitted that Emmett never touched her (as this was claimed by a biographer of hers), although this is denied by both Carolyn and also the FBI who said that this was never admitted. Carolyn, in her own autobiography, stands by her story and the FBI have said that she never changed her story.

In Carolyn's autobiography, she claims to have had no idea what her husband and brother in law planned to do Emmett. She says she told them they'd got the wrong boy in an attempt to make them take him home. She says she feels like a victim too, in a way, because her life was changed forever by what happened. She says that she'd prayed every day for Emmett's family.

Family of Emmett Till and other campaigners have since discovered a 67 year old arrest warrant for Carolyn that was never served. They are now trying to find her to serve it to her, and are demanding that the police take action.

Protestors recently stormed a retirement home in large numbers trying to find Carolyn to serve her the arrest warrant. They are searching for her still, but apparently can't find her. Carolyn's family have remained silent, but a friend of the family has said that she's in very ill health, blind, and even if the papers were served to her, she'd be dead before it went to trial.

My question is - how do you feel about this? On the one hand, I understand the desire for justice to be served. This case is absolutely heartbreaking and disgusting. On the other hand, it reminds me a little of the arresting of guards in their 90s, who had worked at concentration camps during World War 2. While a few top Nazis were executed or imprisoned after the war, a number of people who did far more hideous things were free to live normal lives, like the many Nazi scientists, engineers and technicians who were given government jobs in the USA after the war due to their skill and knowledge. Many years later, when people were hungry for justice, they went after the only living people left. It's like needing SOMEONE to be punished because this thing is too hideous to go unpunished. It's almost unbearable for it to go unpunished. But the actual perpetrators aren't around anymore to be punished.

I also wonder whether, even if Carolyn did point out Emmett, she has actually committed a crime if she claims that she had no idea what her husband and brother in law planned to do? I'm not sure about American law but I don't know what that crime would be. I also wonder whether it would actually be justice for her to be punished while his actual killers lived normal lives and died peacefully without ever facing punishment. Would it really be justice or would it just be 'an eye for an eye' - like, SOMEONE has to pay for this.

What do you think?

OP posts:
alphapie · 16/07/2022 18:30

Lalosalamanca · 16/07/2022 18:25

@alphapie perhaps I am ignorant I haven't looked at interviews by his family. Do feel free to enlighten me and post a link. Thanks love xxx

So you comment on an issue with such surety but haven't bothered to research it.

The mind boggles, ignorance personified.

Lalosalamanca · 16/07/2022 18:31

This case wasn't covered in my history class when I was at school. I haven't done any in depth research into this sad case. My instinct tells me that it is highly unlikely a black male teen in America flirted and or touched a white woman in 1955. However if there is clear evidence that he did, then I am happy to stand corrected.

Not that it would change much to be honest. Nobody deserves what he got. Not sure why we are dancing around this point so much.

alphapie · 16/07/2022 18:33

Lalosalamanca · 16/07/2022 18:31

This case wasn't covered in my history class when I was at school. I haven't done any in depth research into this sad case. My instinct tells me that it is highly unlikely a black male teen in America flirted and or touched a white woman in 1955. However if there is clear evidence that he did, then I am happy to stand corrected.

Not that it would change much to be honest. Nobody deserves what he got. Not sure why we are dancing around this point so much.

Now doubling down on the ignorance, toy haven't done research into it yet proclaim so surely that he wouldn't have done something?

When his own family had to warn him about it, and the cousin he was with on the day had to warn him not to before entering the shop as he was a bit of a cheeky chap.

OlympicProcrastinator · 16/07/2022 18:33

During that period of time there was segregation in America and a black person was expected to stand aside, IN THE GUTTER, to let a white person pass by. To say what she did would have been as good as shooting him dead herself.

My logical head and the anger I hold in my heart are at odds on this.

TheFormidableMrsC · 16/07/2022 18:34

I remember reading this horrific story and the absolute heartbreak of this young man's mother. It brought me to tears. Her actions led to his death, I don't care how old she is now, she has literally got away with murder.

Lalosalamanca · 16/07/2022 18:34

This reply has been deleted

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ReginaGeorgeismyname · 16/07/2022 18:40

Lalosalamanca · 16/07/2022 18:31

This case wasn't covered in my history class when I was at school. I haven't done any in depth research into this sad case. My instinct tells me that it is highly unlikely a black male teen in America flirted and or touched a white woman in 1955. However if there is clear evidence that he did, then I am happy to stand corrected.

Not that it would change much to be honest. Nobody deserves what he got. Not sure why we are dancing around this point so much.

There are conflicting reports on what Emmett said. However, his family said he was cheeky and a bit of a joker. He grew up in Chicago and didn't really appreciate the gravity of the situation in the deep south. So its not beyond the realms of possibly he did "flirt." Of course thar does not justify what happened to him. I'm not victim blaming, I'm trying to contextualise for you the situation.

Lalosalamanca · 16/07/2022 18:46

@ReginaGeorgeismyname thanks for the reply. I appreciate that. I really haven't looked at this case in depth so don't actually know much about it. To be honest I really struggle to read about cases like this as it utterly horrifying to me and being a sensitive sort I can feel deeply affected by it all. Whatever he said or did or otherwise, doesn't change much in my mind. A child was brutally murdered and it definitely was racially motivated. It appears no justice was served either. Its beyond heartbreaking.

alphapie · 16/07/2022 18:49

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What do you mean, typing the way I am?

You've shown yourself to be nothing more than severely ignorant on this thread, it's embarrassing, to claim so surely something you then admit you have no idea about - pretty strange

ReginaGeorgeismyname · 16/07/2022 18:52

Lalosalamanca · 16/07/2022 18:46

@ReginaGeorgeismyname thanks for the reply. I appreciate that. I really haven't looked at this case in depth so don't actually know much about it. To be honest I really struggle to read about cases like this as it utterly horrifying to me and being a sensitive sort I can feel deeply affected by it all. Whatever he said or did or otherwise, doesn't change much in my mind. A child was brutally murdered and it definitely was racially motivated. It appears no justice was served either. Its beyond heartbreaking.

Yes it doesn't change much as nothing anyone did or did not say can justify what happened. You questioned before why dancing around this point though and I do think it is worth doing so as it highlights the severity of the situation in the deep South compared with (the still racist and segregated) north.

It is a truly horrific case, but sadly not isolated.

Lalosalamanca · 16/07/2022 18:56

You're mad aggy @alphapie are you always so intense? Jesus. Chill out....not sure why it bothered you soooo much that i couldn't believe a black child in 1955 America is unlikely to flirt with a white woman? What's the real problem here???? 🤔
Is there a mumsnet rule that people can only comment on threads if they are experts on the issue? Didn't realise that! My bad. I really didn't do full research I hold my hands up still can't understand why a stranger on the Internet would get so aggy about it. So strange. Have a good evening now yeah!

OneTC · 16/07/2022 18:58

What she did would amount to some kind of joint enterprise.

It's a shame they're only trying to catch up with her when she's old and infirm, but I don't think that should give you a pass from previous crimes

alphapie · 16/07/2022 19:00

@Lalosalamanca it's quite offensive to comment on such a horrific and prominent case with such ignorance.

Hence why my comments might seem 'aggy'

Educate yourself, don't come on a post about a 14 year old child was was tortured to death and making silly comments when you have admitted you have no knowledge of the case.

ClaudineClare · 16/07/2022 19:03

@alphapie there is a lot of conflicting info our there, but Carolyn Bryant Donham at one point said she made the whole thing up. So the "cheeky chap" said nothing to her.

OneTC · 16/07/2022 19:03

Mostly because I'm certain in the real world you would struggle to make eye contact with me LOL.

Sheesh

ihatethefuckingmuffin · 16/07/2022 19:03

Under American law she would be guilty of felony murder as she participated in his brutal attack that led to his death. Had she not told anyone about him she would be innocent. The KKK were ruthless towards black people to the point that the FBI stepped in and were often threatened and attacked themselves. She knew what the out cone would have been.

. And the interviews the blokes did after they were wrongfully acquitted by a corrupt legal system and jurors should be used as evidence against her.

The point of a trial is to have a fair one and the jury of your peers. The victim and his family were denied this.

Lalosalamanca · 16/07/2022 19:04

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Bangolads · 16/07/2022 19:06

Send her to trial. Emmet’s death haunts me. It’s heinous.

Justwingingit2005 · 16/07/2022 19:15

My son studied this case for GCSE history.
Of all the topics he's studied this got to him the most.

Cantwaitfortheweekend · 16/07/2022 19:55

Conspiracy to murder at the very least.

Cantwaitfortheweekend · 16/07/2022 19:55

Cantwaitfortheweekend · 16/07/2022 19:55

Conspiracy to murder at the very least.

‘Commit murder’

steff13 · 16/07/2022 20:03

By law here in the US if she lied and her actions inside of the murder then she would also be guilty of murder. If there's evidence that she lied I think she should be arrested in that should be investigated. The prosecutor seems to believe that there is no evidence that she lied, and that's why the case has been closed. Without having investigated it myself I'm going to have to defer to her expertise.

Luredbyapomegranate · 16/07/2022 20:10

It’s just a publicity stunt though? The police aren’t issuing a warrant.

I can understand that the boy’s relatives might do it to make a point, as there was so much injustice in that period and earlier.

There’s no evidence and nothing could come of it.

DaniRabbity · 16/07/2022 20:12

I have read up on this case extensively, and everything his mother said points to her warning her son because she knew how extremely dangerous the Deep South was for black boys, not because her son's "behaviour" was a concern.

You have to understand how many thousands of black people were murdered in cold blood, and how much power and control the KKK had in those days - black people were openly hunted and killed for sport, for literally no reason.

Simply existing while black was very very dangerous.

The posters claiming the fact his mother warned him suggests he was badly behaved are very obviously white and ignorant about racism.

If you look at the actual quotes (including trial testimony) from Emmett Till's mother, nothing indicates she had concerns specifically about his behaviour, but over the fact he was entering dangerous territory. She testified that she explicitly told him that if a white person was ever angry at him, he should get on his knees and beg for forgiveness without a thought. Hardly something a mother would say to a teenager she believed to be badly behaved and cheeky!

Plenty of black parents today feel they have no choice but to give their children training on how to stay alive (eg how to handle police persecution, how to handle false allegations from racists) and this training starts in toddlerhood. Even today, black kids are trained how to de-escalate white people's anger.

Emmett Till's mother didn't warn her son because of his behaviour, but because of theirs.

DaniRabbity · 16/07/2022 20:12

I have read up on this case extensively, and everything his mother said points to her warning her son because she knew how extremely dangerous the Deep South was for black boys, not because her son's "behaviour" was a concern.

You have to understand how many thousands of black people were murdered in cold blood, and how much power and control the KKK had in those days - black people were openly hunted and killed for sport, for literally no reason.

Simply existing while black was very very dangerous.

The posters claiming the fact his mother warned him suggests he was badly behaved are very obviously white and ignorant about racism.

If you look at the actual quotes (including trial testimony) from Emmett Till's mother, nothing indicates she had concerns specifically about his behaviour, but over the fact he was entering dangerous territory. She testified that she explicitly told him that if a white person was ever angry at him, he should get on his knees and beg for forgiveness without a thought. Hardly something a mother would say to a teenager she believed to be badly behaved and cheeky!

Plenty of black parents today feel they have no choice but to give their children training on how to stay alive (eg how to handle police persecution, how to handle false allegations from racists) and this training starts in toddlerhood. Even today, black kids are trained how to de-escalate white people's anger.

Emmett Till's mother didn't warn her son because of his behaviour, but because of theirs.

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