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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Or are shit men shit from the start?

152 replies

Animallover87 · 16/07/2022 10:21

So many threads here about appalling husbands...

Were they always like that or did they reveal their true colours after marriage/DC when it was "too late?"

OP posts:
DillonPanthersTexas · 19/07/2022 10:45

I am starting to think it's because we are still raised to want to be chosen, as opposed to doing the choosing

Given how online dating/Tinder seems to be dominating the dating landscape surely women these days are more empowered to do the 'choosing'?

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/07/2022 10:50

ThreeLittleDots · 19/07/2022 10:38

almost everything about the way girls are traditionally raised is profoundly damaging to them

Have you any thoughts on the way boys are traditionally raised?

There's plenty wrong with the way boys have traditionally been raised too. Primarily the idea that they have some inherent primacy in the world which gives them the right to dominion over women.

You see this in most men, even the most "progressive" ones, to some degree. They may pay lip service to feminism but deep down most of them instinctively believe they should call the shots in most areas of life including in the workplace and the family.

I don't think this is good for society btw, but the critical difference is that these behaviours are not typically self-destructive.

Boys aren't generally brought up to constantly second guess themselves, to constantly check their behaviour, their appearance, to bring their views into line with the consensus, to tamp everything down and hold back and play nice and not rock the boat at almost all cost.

Obviously there are some men who don't fit the "masculine" mould (gay men being the most obvious example) whose role here is problematic.

But the societal expectation is that men should be able to develop themselves as they see fit and be who they are without constantly kowtowing to what women expect and need from them. This is not true of women.

Many women's entire lives are designed more or less exclusively to fit around men and any behaviour which doesn't please or support men is discouraged or shamed.

DillonPanthersTexas · 19/07/2022 10:57

What have their ’shit experiences’ been?

Probably similar to some of experiences I have seen described on this thread I imagine insofar as controlling, abusive and narc tendencies. When chatting to my male friends most have described being subjected at some point to financial, emotional and physical abuse at some point with a former partner. In retrospect many of the 'red flags' were on show early in the relationship but they were ignored or parked as the men concerned were smitten with the women concerned and honestly thought they could change or manage things. It is only when you come out the back end of a toxic relationship you end up shaking your head and telling yourself 'what the hell was I thinking'.

DillonPanthersTexas · 19/07/2022 11:00

Obviously there are some men who don't fit the "masculine" mould (gay men being the most obvious example) whose role here is problematic.

Yes, gay men are all effeminate beta males. Good grief.

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/07/2022 11:22

@DillonPanthersTexas

I'm explicitly not saying gay men are effeminate beta males.

I'm saying that historically some gay men have not exhibited the kind of behaviours which society expects of men.

iCouldSleepForAYear · 19/07/2022 12:38

DillonPanthersTexas · 19/07/2022 10:45

I am starting to think it's because we are still raised to want to be chosen, as opposed to doing the choosing

Given how online dating/Tinder seems to be dominating the dating landscape surely women these days are more empowered to do the 'choosing'?

Depends on the dating landscape I think? My teenager isn't using tinder and apparently neither are her pals. She's 16; still seems to be around the age dating starts in earnest.

I remember using Match.com back in the day. While I suppose I had a degree of choosing, in that I could pass over any profiles I didn't like the look of, I was also conscious of making my profile seem appealing. I've never used Tinder, but I thought you had to be just as "selectable" as the person you found attractive.

Anyway, to me, the point of the thread is about red-flag behavior. Or at least, behaviors that should be red flags. Some people make their intentions known on dating profiles (if that's how you roll) but they often don't display them until a few dates and sexual encounters in.

The toxic blokes I was thinking of in my previous post were both people the women met through online dating.

iCouldSleepForAYear · 19/07/2022 12:42

For all the stories I hear about gentlemen starting a conversation with a woman online, and that chat quickly escalating to dick pics or propositioning sex, I don't think nearly as many of the blokes are concerned about being chosen. Because if they were, they'd rein it the fuck in already.

Sonervousimgonnathrowup · 19/07/2022 13:05

ThreeLittleDots · 19/07/2022 10:38

almost everything about the way girls are traditionally raised is profoundly damaging to them

Have you any thoughts on the way boys are traditionally raised?

And here is another great example of how to raise girls in a way that it damages girls/women:
THINK ABOUT THE MEN!!
Always remember males!
The poor innocent boys and men!
oh, no!

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/07/2022 13:07

iCouldSleepForAYear · 19/07/2022 12:42

For all the stories I hear about gentlemen starting a conversation with a woman online, and that chat quickly escalating to dick pics or propositioning sex, I don't think nearly as many of the blokes are concerned about being chosen. Because if they were, they'd rein it the fuck in already.

The vast majority of men have no idea what turns women on or what they want in a man. They've never had to think about it.

WatchoRulo · 19/07/2022 13:08

Loocheeyar · 16/07/2022 10:22

There is definitely something wrong with men in general

Only Men?

Sonervousimgonnathrowup · 19/07/2022 13:10

DillonPanthersTexas · 19/07/2022 10:45

I am starting to think it's because we are still raised to want to be chosen, as opposed to doing the choosing

Given how online dating/Tinder seems to be dominating the dating landscape surely women these days are more empowered to do the 'choosing'?

There’s not much to choose from though @DillonPanthersTexas .

Quantity, perhaps yes.
Quality, absolutely not.
It’s really bad out there.

And to add, it’s an old news, but over 40% of men on dating apps are taken, and I’d guess it has only gotten worse…

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/07/2022 13:18

WatchoRulo · 19/07/2022 13:08

Only Men?

Let me rephrase that: there's something wrong with patriarchy.

Rinatinabina · 19/07/2022 13:41

LightDrizzle · 16/07/2022 12:39

I think there are broadly two very different categories:

The serial hardcore misogynist, insecure abuser who has a script of initial charm and love bombing followed by incremental increases in control and isolation to undermine their and dominate their partner.

The man who is unaware he is selfish because he doesn’t have children and all that’s required to be a good bloke is to stand your round, hang out with your mates regularly, be a good laugh, buy your mum a card three times a year, keep a job. Then you fall in love and get to do fun stuff with with your gf too, you have exciting sex, get pissed together, but you both still go out with mates/ colleagues. You can go the gym after work, you both have a bit of disposable cash. It’s fucking brilliant! You are loving to your gf/ wife because it’s all good. There’s not a huge amount of washing and housework to do as there’s just the two of you, she probably does more than her fair share of the heavier housework like hoovering and mopping because honestly, it just doesn’t occur to you and she seems happy to do it, she’s more into decor and nesting and that since you bought the flat together.

You have a baby and all of a sudden you’re getting dragged into all kinds of shit. You can’t remember your mum making such a fuss. All you want to do is keep up your footy like your mates, it’s good for you and if you don’t train the odd night you are going let the team down. What’s the point in two of you sitting around the house staring at the baby. Life has changed for the worst and instead of seeing how much more it’s changed for your partner, how knackered she is, you fight for your own lifestyle and freedoms. She’s on mat leave ffs! She’s got all day with nothing to do but look after the baby, does she have to be such a martyr about doing the odd bit of housework around it?
You’re not a bastard, you don’t abuse her, you just use avoidance for the most part and keep doing what you want to do. When she throws a hussy fit you do a bit more for a while to get her off your back and show her how easy it is and no big deal.

Four years on and relative incompetence is your best friend. It started innocently enough, of course the baby settled quickest for his mum, you could swear your wife was secretly quite chuffed. Now there’s no way you could get them both up and off to school and the minder with the right stuff in a morning, it’s chaos. When you do give her a lie-in she gets up anyway, blaming noise and Buddy sneaking in for cuddle. All your fault apparently…

You’re not a bad bloke and everyone else thinks you’re a good dad. You love the kids and they love you. She doesn’t seem to realise she could have it a lot worse. She’s now earning 60% of what you are so if you can’t do your job properly you are both fucked. What does she want? To be honest she’s the one who’s changed, not you, and not for the better.

I think the second type of bloke is often genuinely oblivious. Useless twat.

This, such a good post.

ihavenocats · 19/07/2022 16:42

When you settled down with your partner, did you sit down and make sure you align on housework, parenting, politics, money management, etc. before you settled?

If not, you are not alone. None of us do, and herein lies the problem.

HinchcliffeandMurgatroyd · 19/07/2022 16:44

OFC they have to conceal it well initially to trap someone into marriage/children.

LoopyLoo1991 · 19/07/2022 16:52

Really depends on the guy.

Know BF ten years, together for six. He tries to be nice to everyone & not changed & has to be reminded not to chat with certain local idiots and users.
Okay he is ASD (Asperger's) and truly different from any guy I have ever met ever. Some of his friends (also ASD) are similar but only in tiny doses. Otherwise nightmares!

Seen too many marriages/relationships fail - one much older ex was married four times before he met me - so it puts you off trying yourself to certain characters is best practice.

May get married in last gasp in my sixties, but before then ... no.

Don't ever place your hopes on a 50% chance of failure...

HauntingScream · 19/07/2022 18:07

The standards in society for men have really dropped. It's seems acceptable that they stay at the teenage stage of life.

Hrpuffnstuff1 · 19/07/2022 18:53

iCouldSleepForAYear · 19/07/2022 12:38

Depends on the dating landscape I think? My teenager isn't using tinder and apparently neither are her pals. She's 16; still seems to be around the age dating starts in earnest.

I remember using Match.com back in the day. While I suppose I had a degree of choosing, in that I could pass over any profiles I didn't like the look of, I was also conscious of making my profile seem appealing. I've never used Tinder, but I thought you had to be just as "selectable" as the person you found attractive.

Anyway, to me, the point of the thread is about red-flag behavior. Or at least, behaviors that should be red flags. Some people make their intentions known on dating profiles (if that's how you roll) but they often don't display them until a few dates and sexual encounters in.

The toxic blokes I was thinking of in my previous post were both people the women met through online dating.

Why is your daughter dating?
Why?

Why not education, education, education, career, build the foundation for life going forward. I certainly will not encourage my daughters to date.

People versus work comments are just nonsense, all studies show the broken family unit is a key indicator across all parameters for future poverty, dysfunction, health problems etc.
The issues are intergenerational too.

RiverSkater · 19/07/2022 19:15

I made the mistake of confiding in my partner about my Dad who was in the pub / bookies all the time, having his own social life down the Irish Centre in town, did zero cooking and housework , drinking to excess, and beat my mum up.

Sadly, he thought that as long as he didn't do all that he could always say 'I'm better than your Dad'.

Sadly, I chose somebody just like my dad ( minus the beatings) as it was all so familiar and better the devil you know.

Crikeyalmighty · 19/07/2022 19:32

There are an also lot of men who are fine for long periods but get to late 40s /early 50s and turn into not particularly nice husbands- moaning/not satisfied/sleazy//selfobsessed etc. i have quite a few friends in this position in long marriages where their partner simply isn't the person they married

iCouldSleepForAYear · 19/07/2022 19:37

@Hrpuffnstuff1

She isn't. She's actually too shy to approach the boys she fancies at school, and is not popular enough to be constantly approached instead.

But she does have good friends who are dating. Who have boyfriends and girlfriends. It's normal at that age to start exploring relationships.

Not on Tinder though, thank goodness.

HRTQueen · 19/07/2022 19:38

Crikeyalmighty · 19/07/2022 19:32

There are an also lot of men who are fine for long periods but get to late 40s /early 50s and turn into not particularly nice husbands- moaning/not satisfied/sleazy//selfobsessed etc. i have quite a few friends in this position in long marriages where their partner simply isn't the person they married

Yes I know quite a few men like this

I think quite a few are bitter life hasn’t turned out as they hoped. They are threatened by younger men at work and no longer as valued in society

many women go through a similar stage but I think that maybe we tend to internalise this more

Hrpuffnstuff1 · 19/07/2022 20:02

Crikeyalmighty · 19/07/2022 19:32

There are an also lot of men who are fine for long periods but get to late 40s /early 50s and turn into not particularly nice husbands- moaning/not satisfied/sleazy//selfobsessed etc. i have quite a few friends in this position in long marriages where their partner simply isn't the person they married

I think they get fed up. They can see their dreams going, disappearing along with their hairline.
Or male menopause.
My dad was awful in his 40's, but slowly mellowed into his late 50's. Chilled now in his 70's. They both rode the transition from mid to older age and now have a great life.
56 yrs married.

Crikeyalmighty · 19/07/2022 20:23

@HRTQueen I think you are right- women go through the menopause and men often go and do something twattish and get caught and dumped

balalake · 19/07/2022 20:28

@LightDrizzle I think you sum up the two main types, the third being the type who change after something that used to be called a midlife crisis.

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