Or are shit men shit from the start?

[Animallover87]

So many threads here about appalling husbands...

Were they always like that or did they reveal their true colours after marriage/DC when it was "too late?"

Theoneinthemiddle “you can train the opportunistic ones who just
like to see how much they can get away with.”

I rejected those the minute I saw a hint of that. What is the point if they are basically trying to be awful to you?

No more than some women! Threads about appalling husbands? Isn't that the purpose of MN, to let women present their side of a relationship as the gospel truth when it would be good to read the other side?

I agree with @Greenberg -
not horrible all the time, nice enough often enough for me to keep trying to make him nice again

My ex showed some unpleasant traits from early on, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt because he was also loving, affectionate, generous, handsome and amazing in bed!

If he’d been an arsehole all the time, or even 50/50 I wouldn’t have put up with it, but when it’s every few weeks, and in between times you’re happy and you feel loved and appreciated, you convince yourself that the poor behaviour is a blip, and that the nice him is the real him.

It’s only once you reach a point where the bad stuff outweighs the food in either frequency or intensity that you see it for what it is.

How many times do we read the phrase on here “the only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is zero” and it has to be said because lots of us don’t recognise this truth.

It’s not about being desperate for “any man” or not wanting to be single. It’s about trying to see a balance in someone, accepting that we’re all human and make mistakes, but not knowing where that line is drawn, especially if he constantly tells you that what he’s doing and saying isn’t a big deal. You doubt your own boundaries and question if you’re being over sensitive etc, hence all the posts on here asking AIBU for reacting perfectly normally to shitty treatment.

I'm married to one of these men.
I was really young and naive and was escaping an abusive home.

It wasn't obvious at first at all and I'd been with him for years before we had kids.
When I got pregnant with my first that's when the red flags started to show.

Things weren't always bad and he seemed to do his share but everything deteriorated very fast after I had my 3rd child. He became lazy selfish rude and didn't lift a finger.

He's gotten worse as the years have gone by. Some days he will be kind and caring and will pull his weight but that will be short lived. I've spoken to him about the issue many times but he doesn't understand and refuses to accept his part.

My sister’s ex was an affable, charming, witty, loving man … until she moved in with him and the coercive control started. He essentially tortured her psychologically (in some extremely weird and elaborate ways, often anonymously from outside the home) and eventually became physically violent. There was zero indication beforehand.

(He also sexually assaulted me at my sister’s birthday party.)

Mine also acts the nice guy in front of my family like butter wouldn't melt.
They have no idea how lazy and selfish he is.

Ridiculous comment!

I used to think that being nice was enough. Now I feel that a lot of men enjoy the tussle of wills and thrive off a challenge. It’s hard work enforcing boundaries each day, but it’s necessary because if you let it slip it soon becomes precedent- you did it last week and didn’t complain. Enforcing boundaries cheerfully and with good humour is also a pain but it’s also necessary.

Mine was. But I was raised by a shit father so things like addiction, aggression, sulking and having no job or money seemed normal to me. I really wish they taught red flags/abuse in schools because some of us had no idea that these things were not ok.

From the friends that I know, their dp/dh was shit from the start and they chose to turn a blind eye. I think the flags are always there.

In my case it’s only a lot of years later that he has shown himself to be shit.
he’s very antisocial and covid has made that worse in that he thoroughly enjoyed lockdown and furlough and not leaving the house and he would have been happy to stay that way forever. Whereas I am social. I need my friends and I need a social life. Even just catching up over a coffee or a walk round the local lake. That time away from the house and being me. I know that sounds corny.

this wouldn’t be a problem in itself as I’m happy to be social with other people and him to so what he wants. But he begrudges me going out. Had a recent works night out. Told him weeks/months before and kept reminding him. Come the day of the event I have texts how’s your day? Anything nice for dinner? Then the denying I told him I was going out. Come home to the silent treatment.

this is how it goes Everytime. Denying I had said/asked if it was ok. Then the that’s it you go out with your friends and leave me on my own. Why don’t you just move out and leave as you obviously prefer them to me and other ridiculous statements.

the dc at home are 16 and 20 so it’s not like he’s got to do anything. 20 yr old is away at uni most of the time anyway.

it is a constant battle as I’m not going to give up my social life especially with the dc being older now I don’t want to spend the rest of my life watching tv on separate sofas. It’s up to him if he wants to stay or leave. I

The question maybe also makes sense the other way round. When I first saw my husband he was taking time to patiently explain some very complex point about interest rates to a junior from another team, and doing it well.

He wasn’t patronizing, or arrogant, he just used his obvious expertise to make a difficult subject understandable to someone who was interested.

He never talked down to anyone, or criticised any colleagues, which was a bit of a revelation to me, as in my previous job senior traders tended to be real shits.

This has turned out to be how he is in all sorts of areas. He’s definitely not perfect, but he’s a wonderful husband and father, and I still feel lucky to have him.

Mine love-bombed me and it was too late (as in 2 young DC) by the time I realised he was highly anxious, grumpy, unfriendly to me, and just didn't really have my back. He struggled with the toddler years and has done untold damage to the kids, mental health over the years with his outbursts and negativity. He definitely changed, or hid who he really was to get the wife and family he wanted (and now doesn't want) 😕

What have their ’shit experiences’ been?

I think the shittest partners have always been shit and the clues are there. But there's also a grey area of shit-ness which is less obvious and where the men themselves don't fully realise they have ingrained assumptions until they are tested.

My husband always gave the impression that he thought we were completely equal etc. We were together 10 years when we had our first child. It was a bit of a shock that he expected me to do everything child related. I had to ask him to do one feed (late evening feed which was expressed milk in a bottle), which he did but seemed surprised if asked. When I went back to work I had to insist he did one bathtime/bedtime and gave me one of the weekend lie ins. Again he agreed but seemed a bit surprised I'd asked. When I challenged him about it he said "but I thought you loved all that". He had an ingrained assumption that a baby is like a special hobby for the mother.

Trust me things changed a lot and we shared the parental leave when we had our second and he was/ is much more hands on. But pretty much all the child related admin is left to me. I've tried not doing it so he will step up but the kids would end up missing school trips, not having school dinners ordered, never going to the dentist etc. He does more cooking than me and all the laundry and hoovering so I can live with it. If he didn't I think I'd have got sick of him long ago.

Yes they probably are but when there's only two adults, their selfishness doesn't really have much impact. The true extent of it often comes out during times when a woman is vulnerable/needs support, such as during illness or a rough pregnancy and then after birth they don't pull their weight, make shitty comments about their partners appearance and can't cope with everything not being about them.

Obviously not all men are like this but the shitty ones shitness is more apparent after kids and can often be overlooked or forgiven prior to kids.

Many women are also conditioned from childhood to put up with or expect this type of shit behaviour.

You see as a man I see this completely differently, what do you do together?

What do you want him to do, and how do you want him to react? He probably knows there is a problem but he's trapped in his curmudgeonly state.
Your marriage sounds miserable for all parties, it's mental torture. And men just vegetate into a mental abyss of miserableness.
My parents have been married for over 55yrs and they basically just spend all their time on holiday. Together.

They are shit from the start but hide it well. At first they are all sweetness and light, but once they have got their feet under the table, the drop the act and show their true colours.

I'd like to think, when looking at a newborn baby boy, he isn't necessarily destined to be "a shit man". Upbringing, environment and social pressure is important.

You're on mumsnet, of course he'll grow up to be a shit, an abuser and rapist. That's the way on mumsnet.

Perhaps they grow up that way because that's what we tell them we want.

Mumsnet is bit like a monty python sketch...
All men are shits
my husband isn't
OK all men are shits except MrsMs husband
my son isn't
OK all men are shits except MrsM's husband and your son
what about my husband? He's nice
OK all men are shits except MrsM's husband MrsO's son and MrsP's husband
hang on my brothers nice
OK let's hear it for the men out there.

The biggest and most dangerous dickheads that have wooed some of the women I know were dickheads from the start.

He's the guy who gets in a snit and calls you a slut if you have fun at a friend's henny and there happened to be strippers.

He's the guy who won't give your teenage daughter space to adjust to his presence and instead insists on being seen as her dad. And gets in a snit with you if you try to stick up for her.

He's the guy who pushes your boundaries little by little, instead of respecting them and backing the fuck off.

He's the guy who goes off in a sulk because you won't do anal.

He's the guy who expects sex multiple times a week and doesn't actually care that you're not physically or psychologically up for it that week. He isn't curious about why. You not being up for it is just an insult to him. Why are you insulting him? He thought you loved him.

Why do we put up with this and other dickheaded behaviours? I am starting to think it's because we are still raised to want to be chosen, as opposed to doing the choosing.

Think of socially awkward it still seems for the woman in a heterosexual couple to propose marriage: have you ever seen it happen in a romantic movie or TV show? If you have, what was the ratio to the film and literature of the man proposing?

We have an awful lot of modelling, beyond just the people who raised us, of relationships where men are calling the shots about the important stuff. When we see ourselves as needing to be chosen to be of value, we put up with a lot more than we should.

I am starting to think it's because we are still raised to want to be chosen, as opposed to doing the choosing. I think that’s it!! All the films, tv etc are about men doing the choosing. Women are taught to be desired. Even out yesterday loads of the girls had on skimpy clothes. I get that it’s hot but they were walking round in a bra and hot pants. I was wondering about it and how they must either consciously or unconsciously want men to desire them.

I am starting to think it's because we are still raised to want to be chosen, as opposed to doing the choosing

Totally.

And in fact the older I get the more convinced I become that almost everything about the way girls are traditionally raised is profoundly damaging to them.

Most of the damaging and self-limiting behaviours which girls and women experience in their lifetimes can be traced back to things they were taught to do as children or young adults in order to please or appease men. NB I'm not saying men explicitly make them do this. More often than not its a woman anticipating how a man will react (ie "don't talk too much", or "keep your opinions to yourself" or "don't get your dress dirty"), as opposed to a man explicitly saying it.

But patriarchy, whether filtered through men or women, is responsible for a significant degree of the following in women and girls:

• Self harm
• Food disorders and anorexia
• Under-achievement at school and failure to put themselves forwards for things that interest them
• Limiting their own career choices by choosing less well-paid careers or opting out of them too early to raise children
• Poor relationship choices
• Staying in abusive marriages/relationships
• Failure to enforce boundaries which allow men to do far less than their fair share of domestic labour
• Addiction

I become increasingly convinced the older I become that a family unit which doesn't include a man is more often than not healthier for raising girls. Yes there are some wonderful men who are fantastic, involved fathers but they are in the minority IMHO.

I'm sure female only families are not without their shortcomings and I don't think a women only commune would be for me. For all their numerous shortcomings I like men and want them around.

But I think the less girls take men's "needs" into account, the healthier and happier they are.

almost everything about the way girls are traditionally raised is profoundly damaging to them

Have you any thoughts on the way boys are traditionally raised?

Most will always had had those tendancies. But (1) people get comfortable and make less effort and (2) things that weren't an issue become an issue as we experience different pressures and challenges (e.g. that a man won't change nappies isn't an issue - and probably doens't even come up - before there is a baby)