Or are shit men shit from the start?

[Animallover87]

So many threads here about appalling husbands...

Were they always like that or did they reveal their true colours after marriage/DC when it was "too late?"

I think it's probably always there, but doesn't really come into focus until situations and issues arise, like financial problems or children that need parenting, and as they're solely focused on what they want, it doesn't occur that there are some not quite so nice elements of life that need to be dealt with, because some deal with those things by just walking away from it all and leaving someone else to clear up the mess, so they're never affected by the concequences of their actions.

Some are also well aware that showing who they are before someone is invested will probably lead to them walking away, and men like that need to win, it's not particularly that they want you specifically, they want to know that they can 'win' and will go to pretty much any length to do so, hiding their true selves until you're invested to the point that getting out is difficult, having tied your life to theirs, and then having 'won' walk away to the next one because the challenge is over - they've won and need the next challenge. It's a game.

Not necessarily after marriage but after you feel committed in my case. Plus, not horrible all the time, nice enough often enough for me to keep trying to make him nice again.

In my case, down to coming from a family where the parents weren't kind and loving, so I didn't see it as that abnormal. My boundaries are better now.

I've had the same group of friends since school, now all middle aged and the ones who married dickheads are the ones who are now divorced. I don't blame them though, some people are just naive, see the good in people etc one of my nicest, loveliest friends had an awful spouse, I feel nothing but empathy for her. She saw through him in the end and that's what counts.

Shit men have shit parents.

This is a bit simplistic. I work with young people who have very difficult home lives and I don't like the idea that those boys are destined to become "shit men". I've worked with some young men who were truly wonderful despite growing up horrifically abused and neglected. My own DH has shit parents but he is a great husband and Father because he's made a conscious decision to be different from them, and not to parent our DC the way he was parented.

I also agree with Maverickess that it becomes more obvious further down the line when life challenges happen. When you're just dating, it's not so obvious that one person gets their own way all the time: it's easy to accommodate them. When you're pregnant, got small children, are dealing with multiple balls in the air, it's much harder to cope and you're looking for love and support, not someone prioritising their job and their mates. Plus you haven't always got the energy to be constantly reinforcing your boundaries, so their behaviour often deteriorates.

But it also becomes obvious that there were a lot of red flags, it's just many of us are taught to ignore them in order to be 'nice'.

Agreed.

I didn’t have good parents.
I went to therapy, learned and made changes.
It would be cruel to say I have no change, just because of the the people I was born to.

Although I’m a woman, so I don’t and wouldn’t get away with behaviour that men do.
So that is different.

I was happily married for 20+ years, no abuse that I was aware of, until he met someone else who was more what he wanted, and we eventually divorced. I had 4 miserable years where he lied, gaslighted me, and spent our money without my knowledge, it seemed to come from nowhere, and was as if he had changed character. However in hindsight I have realised that I was living in a bubble, where everything was lovely as long as I and our family situation was what he wanted. When he met someone he thought would suit him better, we were just something he wanted out of the way. Looking back I can see the signs right from the start of our relationship, which I ignored, as they didn't fit my happy family picture, although my sisters could see it, and disliked him. I had a new happy relationship in my 40s to my 60s, so didn't really look back, but since I have been widowed and am now I'm my 70s I can see clearly the mistakes I made in my first marriage, the first one being marrying the flaky bastard in the first place😂

They are usually shit from the start. A key problem is people wanting to rush into relationships so not having enough time to see it before they are living with them or tied to them in some way such as kids. Lots of people are essentially living with the man within a month of meeting him. Lots of people have no sense of needing time and going slow and no patience. It’s either what they think of as a full-on relationship or not. From zero to 100 in a week. People tie themssleves to shit men - and yes, it’s because they don’t know what healthy relatiinhsios look like and because they haven’t learned to wait and give things time. The shit men can spit those women. They can hide their shittiness for a short period….but it doesn’t have to be long, because very quickly the woman is tied in or too lacking confidence to be alone. And the men don’t even necessarily think they are shit, because these women want to be with them and accept the shittiness. Cyclical.

My DM advised looking at the worst characteristics of each of their parents and deciding if you could cope with the combination (as a worst case scenario). She commented that she was unsurprising that DDad became grumpy as he got older as DGP had been a grumpy old man!

I think they’re like that from the start, but some men are very good at hiding it.

It’s common for abuse to start in pregnancy, when a man feels he has a woman trapped - that’s why midwives are so alert to it.

I also think that lots of men are lovely as long as everything goes completely their way. And often after kids, when things stop revolving entirely around them and their penises, they get nasty.

Bollocks.

I have a brother I wouldn’t want him as a partner. He is very adept at hiding his true controlling nature until way after his latest conquest has fallen for the charming man he can be.

His parents are definitely not shit parents.

My ex was lovely when I met him, and turned into an abusive prick over the years. None of my friends saw that there was anything wrong, because he was perfectly able to put a face on, and seem like the most amazing, sensitive person. He was not. He destroyed me.

Some women are just attracted to "bad boys". They equate nice with boring.

That’s definitely true. I’ve unfortunately got a cousin who decided to get pregnant by an absolutely appalling man just to shock / rebel against her parents.

I disagree.

My male sibling and I are like chalk and cheese and he could be considered a “shit man”.

We both had the same parents and upbringing.

Not necessarily! A man can develop a drinking/drug problem and as a result of the effect on his brain, turn into a monster. He wasn't necessarily always a monster!

Actually the shit parenting I had in mind, was the general sexist ways boys are brought up vs girls.

Every parent with boys at my children's school who are (quite frankly) little shits I've noticed poor parenting, e.g. "don't cry, don't be a baby / girl / wuss". Also these parents letting boys get away with things that are mean, destructive, anti-social because "boys will be boys, lol".

You end up with entitled, emotionally stunted people.

Our whole culture is generally culpable and unless parents actively parent in a different way it just continues.

I don't believe in evil, poor behaviour comes from somewhere and our parents are the biggest influence during our formative years.

All the women I know with shit husbands they were awful from the start they just couldn’t see it. I’ve not known anyone to turn around and be awful, even after difficult divorce etc which it wasn’t clear they would have behaved like that anyway.
However my two good friends in this situation didn’t see it coming even though their partners at the time were crap and friends did say at the time.

Absolutely agree with this. People play the hoodwinked victim afterwards but those around them could generally tell you the guy was shit all along.

People need to raise their standards.

This
I know three proper Jekyll and Hyde situations where they waited till after marriage.

When I look back at my previous shit relationships, there were red flags present in every single one, but I just chose to ignore them or excuse them for a variety of reasons.

I think very few relationships suddenly go from perfect to awful, it's just during the early days, most of us are wearing rose-tinted glasses and lots of niggles are excused or easily overlooked.

Signs are there from the beginning but it’s easy to ignore them or not notice when there’s only two of you. So if the woman does all the emotional load/home making then it’s not so much of a problem because it’s only two of you. Then when kids come along and that workload multiplies but the man just carries on sorting himself out, you can’t ignore it anymore.

There are shitty men and there are shitty women. The MIL threads on here show that very easily.

People develop as they mature, not always in a positive way. They don't have personality transplants though. If someone changes after years then I would say its likely to be MH problems. The abusive people I have encountered in my life were problems. The women in those relationships either ignored and thought they could fix him, that their love was enough or didn't bother to get to know him before moving in, getting pregnant.
How many times on here is someone slated for introducing DC to a new partner in weeks, that parent most likely had whirlwind relationships all along.

It is not victim shaming if you don't take responsibility for your own life choices.

*The abusive people I have encountered in my life were problems
That should have read 'The abusive people I have encountered in my life were always arses or had MH problems all along from youth '