Or are shit men shit from the start?

[Animallover87]

So many threads here about appalling husbands...

Were they always like that or did they reveal their true colours after marriage/DC when it was "too late?"

I have met real ''predators''. Men who were intelligent, had good jobs and had a lot of experience of seducing women and who could hide their true nature until the woman is ''hooked'' and then would slowly but surely start destroying her.
Men who specifically target women who they know to be vulnerable. Complete narcs and psychopaths.

I found out to my cost last year that one of my male acquaintance was exactly that. I never realised the true extent of what he was doing being closed door until I had a bad experience with him when we briefly dated and I spoke to his previous girlfriends. He was a full on abuser. On the outside he was a successful man, charming, cultured, polite and generous who had had two kids he doted on and a long term marriage and had had no issue attracting beautiful and smart women once he was no longer with his wife.

Most men are shitty from the start but others have learned to hide it long enough for maximum damage.

Predators learn to be charming not just to get away with more, but because they also get their jollies from pulling the wool over peoples eyes.

I think a lot of men, when they think about Fatherhood, imagine kicking a ball around a few times at the park.

I think society needs to set expectations of fatherhood better for men.

They don't really consider or understand that parenting in the early days is 80% cleaning up. Perhaps if Fatherhood on tv was more accurately portrayed as cleaning up, then there'd be fewer Category Two shit men around.

For me. With hindsight the signs were there. But I was young and sometimes he really was lovely and it was me that kept doing things wrong. It was only when I had DS and found myself really in need of 1. Support from him and 2. standing up for myself. Did I really realise.

I think this is a huge part. And that they remember hardly ever seeing their dad's. It seems DH really did think I should have been able to do it all as well as continuing to do everything for him.

Pretty judgemental, not to say offensive. I am not talking about my own relationships, as I'm single, I am talking about what I've observed in other people. Before you go spreading your 'wisdom' about, you might stop to consider whether you are as clever as you think you are.

Nope, all of the shit ones will be shit to start with, since this is the issue being debated on this post.

Goodness me

By default, I would stay single and avoid any hassle, problems in future years 👍👍

This is a good post, very true 👍🏻

This is spot on.

And honestly the reality is that in most cases this is exactly what their emotional family “template” looks like.

The mum will have provided over 90% of hands on care and the dad will have been absent most of the time.

Such “bonding” as did take place would have been very much on terms set by the dad, ie once a week for a football match or some other manly pursuit.

I’m not excusing this because this is 2022 and it’s time they got with the program. But it’s very much hard-wired into a lot of men’s psyches that that’s what being a “good dad” looks like.

In the past the impact on the mum wasn’t considered worthy of attention so they just didn’t think much about any more than making sure her material needs were covered.

Mine has become lazy as he has aged. Also drinks a lot more.
Id say don’t get married and have an escape fund 😉

Several of our male friends did just that same sort of reasoning about women that most mumsnet have about men, just thought they were all dreadful (apart from me and a couple others) just shit experiences dating so gave up.

I've known men who were always going to be shit partners and fathers then those who were an unpleasant surprise!

Even with the obvious dickheads, it's hard to see when you're in it and much easier looking in.

@LightDrizzle spot on!
My DP is a great bloke, probably more houseproud than me (he does stuff like tidying up unasked, I leave mess everywhere). But he also spends a lot of time playing video games.
I love him lots, and he's kind respectful blah2 but I don't think he's REALLY aware of how much a baby changes your life.

OTOH where he and I work there are lots of men doing school runs, taking opposite days of annual leave to look after the kids. Paternity leave, men talking about their babies. So hopefully he's got some good role models!

The signs are there from the start with many men (and women). However, some people feel (once the dating is established) that sunken fallacy applies, and plod on in misery hoping their partner will 'change'. I tell my kids to judge a person by how they speak about others, and from who they choose to spend their time with. Many dodgy people of either sex can be weeded out from the start on that basis.

Absolutely agree with @Chdjdn . It is really easy to not see how selfish a man can be when there is plenty of time, money, etc to go around and less things that need to be done. Once DC are born and you are expected to sacrifice everything whilst they sacrifice nothing it is glaringly obvious.

Some people hide it. In some it develops over time. In some cases it was always there but only becomes clear under stress or circumstances. In some it was always there but people fail to see it. In some it develops for some reason, sometimes slowly and occasionally quickly.

I think having a baby is a very different experience for a man than it is for a woman. They don't have the very radical physical experience including being completely pumped full of certain hormones at the time of the birth, they don't typically have the same level of visceral response when the baby cries, or their milk letting down, if the mum is breastfeeding even that element is a little less immediate. The baby can sometimes be a bit abstract too up until the birth but not so much for the mum.

My observation is that while for many women they are almost overwhelmed with protective caring feelings for men it is less intense. The transition takes longer and the bonding process takes more time. And sometimes they are not sure what to do, either, a lot of them are much more quick to jump in with a subsequent baby.

My shit ex was not like it from the start.

He also did not have shit parents - his 4 siblings are happy, well adjusted and successful.

There is something deeply wrong with my ex and I’ve no idea where it comes from.

I am someone who once got involved with a very shit man. Now, looking back across many years I think I see a couple of reasons why I got so involved and put up with him.

First, I think I was "yearning" for affection. It was something that was missing from my life and as soon as someone came along a threw me a few crumbs I went for him hook, line & sinker.

Second, I had no understanding of red flags in relationships. Mumsnet has been a fantastic teacher for me in that regard, and I wish I knew then what I know now. I wish my mother had taught me about red flags. I don't think she understood them herself. I was also "taught" not to upset her by taking problems to her, so I couldn't talk to her for advice.

In short, things got messed up very badly because of my lack of self-esteem & because I had no knowledge that there was such a thing as red flags to look out for - love bombing etc.

I meant to say in my post - he was a horrible man from the start, I recognise that now but didn't at the time.

I’ve met both the openly bad and the hiding behind a mask. The openly bad ones often hide behind drinking or drugs and target damaged or vulnerable people with low self esteem.

The ones who hide have realised that they need to cultivate a charming personality, but you will see it slip if they are tired or stressed.

However, I think for me, confronting bad behaviour has been effective. Demanding respect, albeit politely and not letting them wear me down. To an extent relationships are a negotiation and along with the charm you need to go in hard in terms of setting boundaries or expectations and sticking to them. I doubt you could ever change a full on predator but you can train the opportunistic ones who just
like to see how much they can get away with.

I have to say that I know alot of great men who are kind to their wives, who love their kids, who
pull their weight and it’s really important to encourage this too. Many men shoulder stressful jobs, ling hours, not many social relationships and very little support as they are supposed to be the strong ones. It’s so important to support them too.

This thread is pretty depressing on a number of fronts.

Yes, once you experience a man like this it's like seeing another species.