To think that toddlers don’t need screens when they’re out and about?

[anotherscroller]

From the other “things you find rude and others don’t” thread, but it’s quite a big one so I thought it could have its own thread.

Here goes:
People who give their toddlers (let’s say 18 months to age 4) tablets/phones to watch tv on in public during incredibly short interludes of time.
e.g. A train journey of less than an hour, a bus ride, while they’re ordering coffee at a café, at the bus stop. While they’re in their buggy being driven back from nursery! That one blows my mind.
If it’s a long haul flight I do it myself, but I think such young children don’t need a screen entertaining them the whole time. AIBU? They are interested in trees, ants, the contents of your bag, playing beekaboo with your sun hat, everything. Watching the world go by.
EXCEPTION: Unless they have, or their caregivers has, a health condition that requires it, makes life easier, make life worth living..

Why do I find it rude?
In the same why I find anything where people are shutting themselves off from other people in public and not being aware of others. Even with headphones on. With toddlers, as an adult with my own toddler, I feel like they and people around them are being deprived of the opportunity to “be present” together. My toddler always wants to be curious about a child on the next table, show them her teddy, or something, and nine times out of ten they can’t because said child is completely lobotomised in front of an iPad.
i think part of being a parent is creatively keeping small children occupied during a waiting time.
i think part of being a child is learning how to be ok with boredom or waiting time, and not constantly having flashy tv to watch.
AIBU?

ReeseWitherfork that's also my concern with giving a screen to dc, how are you going to get them off later. I don't have any tablets and I don't give dc my phone at all. It isn't because I'm a super parent, the very opposite - I don't want tantrums and arguments about screen time.

I was out with a friend with similar age dc, my dc brought a bag of toys to play with, enough for them both. Friends dc was excited to play with the toys, and I offered her a few off them. But friend said "oh no that's OK, she'll play with the ipad". I wouldn't say I judged, but I was baffled. Just why?

This^

DD is 3.5 and has her own tablet 🤷‍♀️ She might use it three days in a row and then not use it for three weeks. It's just another one of her (many) toys that gets played with. We don't take it out and about because we don't need to but that's because she's a very easy-going child and the kind of child you can take places and she will sit and eat a meal sensibly in a restaurant, etc (not claiming any good parenting for this, it's just her character and nothing we have done. She's just an easy kid, apparently I was the same).

We take it on long car journeys and she has free access to it in the house but I don't think she's played with it in about three weeks now. There's a lot of hand-wringing about screens and children but we do so much other stuff weekly sign language and story classes, trips out every weekend, play dates, soft play, nursery, role play, outside play, nature walks, arts and crafts, reading - that I have no issue with her watching some TV or playing her tablet. God knows there's enough hours in the day to fill without fretting about 20 mins on a tablet.

I do understand where you’re coming from; I think part of the problem is our society generally is overstimulated and sensory overload is more prevalent.

My concern is same as the op about the social norm & implications of it. I think generally convenience is a poor argument in favour of something like this (c.f health implications of ultra-processed foods).

The above was reply to @Goldbar

Agreed, especially when you think of some of the things that were done in pursuit of this and how unacceptable that would be today.

@Icanstillrecallourlastsummer - yes there is loads of evidence about what this is doing to our powers of memory, concentration and imagination. We all need to be able to entertain ourselves at times. And to unplug - our brains were not designed for the constant onslaught of information we get through devices. It is not a surprise we have a mental health epidemic in young people who are exposed to so much and every parent should be balanced in the way they let their kids use screens. That starts with managing your own. Which some parents will be less willing to do.

My concern is same as the op about the social norm & implications of it.

Do you think a 3 year old approaching others in a restaurant is within 'social norms'?

I suspect your concerns are much more legitimate than those of OP.

I don't get whats so bad about a child being friendly, why we have to be intolerant of children. They're not a nuisance to be placated by screens.

I suppose it depends though, parents who let their kids run riot are irritating, but as a blanket rule, there's nothing wrong with children being sociable and curious.

don't get whats so bad about a child being friendly, why we have to be intolerant of children.

There is nothing wrong with it in the correct social setting. Family meals in restaurants are not it. There are many appropriate times and places for children to mix with others, but if OP is so concerned about her child learning appropriate social behaviour OP would understand that.

I agree with you but parents are parenting in the world we live in, which is spectacularly unfriendly to small children and where the general feeling is that parents should be entirely responsible for their small children and other people should not be put out in the slightest by having children around them. In this sense, judging parents for using a tool which enables their children to meet the societal standard (which is not just quiet but often absolutely silent and not impinging on anyone else's personal space in the slightest) is a bit bizarre. Have you seen the glares that adults get from those around them for conversing quietly on a train, let alone children being loud, whiny or a bit boisterous?

I agree that the majority of people are now overstimulated. So we have had to invent practices such as mindfulness and forest bathing to try and counteract the constant overstimulation.
I know my concentration is not as good as it used to be. Even at 8 years old I could sit and spend hours reading a book I liked. Now I would struggle and have to take short breaks.
But I worry about children with developing brains making lots of neural connections being so overstimulated. I am not convinced it is good.

@Goldbar do people really expect small children to be absolutely silent? Because that is not what I see around me.

@antelopevalley people are very intolerant of any, percieved, bad behaviour of children. Some of it is just rude looks/ eye rolls, some of it is comments about controlling your child, keeping them quiet etc (directly or passive agressively to someone else). small children are loud and want to move about. They have big emotions. People generaly want, and expect to not be disturbed. The two dont' go hand in hand.

My daughter has always been very well behaved but SUPER outgoing. She loves talking to people. Not all people love talking to her. i mean why it's difficult to return a hello or answer a question I am not entirely sure, but I can assure you many look very put out by the approach. So much so I needed to actively discourage it when she was young as I didn't want her to grow up thinkin the world was the miserable place it sometimes is.

I might have judged before I had children or any experience with children. Now if I saw a toddler their pram with a tablet I wouldn’t give it another thought.
That parent might have been up with toddler since 5am (like me) have a list of crap little errands to do and just trying to get things done before their toddler has a meltdown from being over tired,
I save my high and mighty judgement for parents shouting and swearing at their toddlers whilst pushing them round in a pram not the ones happily getting on with their day minding their own business

You only have one toddler OP? Come back and talk to us all when you have more than one toddler. See how you feel then.

But why not? Just wave and hopefully the parents will dash over, anyway. It's only an issue if the parents just ignore it, but by itself?

I've never thought a child saying hi was inappropriate behaviour, society over here can be a bit cold at times.

My experience is that it's unusual for people to expect absolute silence from small children, but we do have a society that's structured in a way as to make actually pretty normal child behaviours seem difficult and problematic.

For example, OP was talking about toddlers spending an hour on a train. That is actually a very long time to expect a child of that age to be still and reasonably quiet. Plenty of them would really, really struggle whatever was done to try and facilitate it. In that instance there's a safety aspect too, they really do have to be physically contained on a train, but there's also clearly the idea that it should be possible for the parents to keep them under control and entertained- the OP gave an example of colouring books and talking. This clearly wouldn't have the desired effect on all small children.

When mine were toddlers, because they simply wouldn't sit still and quietly for very long and needed to be physically active, we avoided stuff like long train journeys and taking them to restaurants for the most part. But that was a choice we were able to make. Most parents of kids that young do have to take them into at least some places that aren't designed around their needs in the slightest.

@parenthood1989 I think it’s well
within social norms for a pair of 3 year olds in a restaurant to notice each other, indicate an interest in playing with each other and, with parent/carer assent, to do so in a way that is appropriate to the setting. Which is the original scenario from OP and what I’ve been discussing.

@ApplesandBunions taking small children for a walk up the train carriages used to be common at one time. I have only just realised I never see this now.

@antelopevalley . I use public transport most days of the week with my 4yo and you'd be surprised at how intolerant people can be even of a small child sitting nicely but talking a bit loudly to a parent or being a bit slow to sit down or move out the way. My DC has even been physically pushed aside or had a bag slammed in their head a few times (I'm assuming by accident!). I don't take the tablet for short journeys and don't really give a toss whether people on the bus/tube get annoyed because we're playing I spy (they can always move up the carriage, go upstairs or wait for the next bus), but you do get a surprising amount of eye rolls even for a well-behaved child.

Yes, I remember young children being taken for a walk up and down the train carriage when I was young. I'd be worried about doing this with my toddler as I think people would be annoyed by having to move aside to let her past. As another poster has said, you have to be careful these days of people barging into a young child.

@Goldbar agreed, it is very difficult parenting in an individualistic society. And screens in the OP scenarios imo increase isolation and dislocation in public settings. To be honest in the parts of the UK I live in and have stayed in with dc I have overwhelmingly experienced people actively initiating social contact with me and my child or responding encouragingly. Perhaps I have been lucky, perhaps it’s to do with the cultures of those areas.

@AudHvamm I'd expect you are right. London is the worst in my experience