To think that toddlers don’t need screens when they’re out and about?

[anotherscroller]

From the other “things you find rude and others don’t” thread, but it’s quite a big one so I thought it could have its own thread.

Here goes:
People who give their toddlers (let’s say 18 months to age 4) tablets/phones to watch tv on in public during incredibly short interludes of time.
e.g. A train journey of less than an hour, a bus ride, while they’re ordering coffee at a café, at the bus stop. While they’re in their buggy being driven back from nursery! That one blows my mind.
If it’s a long haul flight I do it myself, but I think such young children don’t need a screen entertaining them the whole time. AIBU? They are interested in trees, ants, the contents of your bag, playing beekaboo with your sun hat, everything. Watching the world go by.
EXCEPTION: Unless they have, or their caregivers has, a health condition that requires it, makes life easier, make life worth living..

Why do I find it rude?
In the same why I find anything where people are shutting themselves off from other people in public and not being aware of others. Even with headphones on. With toddlers, as an adult with my own toddler, I feel like they and people around them are being deprived of the opportunity to “be present” together. My toddler always wants to be curious about a child on the next table, show them her teddy, or something, and nine times out of ten they can’t because said child is completely lobotomised in front of an iPad.
i think part of being a parent is creatively keeping small children occupied during a waiting time.
i think part of being a child is learning how to be ok with boredom or waiting time, and not constantly having flashy tv to watch.
AIBU?

I was a bit slow on the uptake with smart phones (I went down the Blackberry route) so didn't have a smart phone to hand during my 11 & 9 yo's early years. Even then data was a bit of an issue so youtube was ruled out and it was some vaguely educations apps and downloads of C Beebies. I've tended to go out equipped with coloured pencils, toy cars etc and would generally try and exhaust those before resorting to screens. I've still got random items stashed in infrequently used handbags 😂 TBH they are still useful and my DCs still like the novelty of rediscovering them.

DS1 has ASD and can get overwhelmed. I've had to remove him from a pub & McDonalds in the past 12m. Some youtube time has defused a big day out in London earlier this year, and enabled him to calm down and enjoy the second half of the day. I'm sure I've been judged thousands of times for whatever I've done or not done with him. I don't care, he's a good kid, and copes pretty well on the whole and I just focus on his triggers, needs and my options in that moment.

However, if I relied on screens as the first approach for everything, I'd be doing him a disservice. He needs to learn skills for existing in a NT world, particularly as he has a reasonable level of function and will be expected to cope with a relatively normal life.

At an individual level we don't know people's motivations but the extent of the issue is long beyond SNs, or children tested to their limits and that is being seen at a statistically significant cohort level. The first thing SALT will tell you is talk to your child, and it might seem "well duh", but some families do need to be told that and their issue is environmental not development. MN is not average, it is better educated than average, parents tend to be well motivated, and there is a higher proportion of SN parents here for more targeted support than they can find with their peers in RL. Parents that aren't motivated or are at a complete loss of how to parent effectively (maybe through dysfunctional childhoods) aren't heavily represented here.

Screens can mimic many wonderful skills, but if that is your only exposure, it is an issue for fine motor control. There is a difference if you never pincer grip to pick up the jigsaw piece, grip a crayon or turn the pages of a book and there are significant numbers of children who turn up to school who only know to tap and swipe. That's not done by screens breaking up a long journey or getting through the last half hour of a tedious meal. I don't know who has sensible boundaries on screen use or not, but a problem has developed that is frequently reported on by various professional bodies.

However, a pox upon parents who inflict the audio Peppa Pig or Youtube nursery rhymes on the rest of the waiting room/ restaurant/ train carriage though. One day I will crack and match their volume with my playlist of 80s novelty hits and see how they like it...

I was in a National Trust property the other day. My toddler went into a completely empty building in the garden with some interesting acoustics - when she realised that she could stamp her feet and shout and produce an echo she was overjoyed. As the gardener walked past, he gave a disapproving look, he clearly thought she was being allowed to misbehave. The societal pressure to keep children quiet is huge.

@Thursday37, I hope you pass a better example on of branding any child/person who would struggle with what you describe as 'not normal'. Using 'normal human being ' isn't great. Likewise it's normal in some families that they don't all sit around a table at the same time and chat. There are lots of norms and lots of ways of communicating that fall within norms. Hopefully your children won't pick up your offensive attitude, or manner of putting things.

e.g. A train journey of less than an hour,

Hmm. I don't know. I was on a train the other day and a mother had two children with her and they were both on screens and I was a bit 😏 . But then a couple with their little grandaughter got on. No screen. And they named everything they could see out of the window, made animal sounds, chatted about her clothes, colours etc etc etc. On and on chattering. Loudly. And I couldn't help thinking, just give her an effing screen.
So in theory I agree with you, bit in practice.... Because those screen kids were beautifully quiet.

I was on a train, family of four, all watching stuff on screens, but only the parents had headphones, so they zoned out their own kids

I don't generally notice what other people are doing and I don't judge anyone
Except the screenless brigade performance parenting at the topsof their voices. We generally move away from them to avoid having to admire their annoying offspring.

@Icanstillrecallourlastsummer I live in london, but in areas with high population levels from countries/cultures where children are an accepted and welcome part of life. Same attitudes for the parts of the UK I frequent.

Anyway I am doing exactly as someone said unthread and distracting myself from frustration about hopeless work situation. Need to step away.

This is awful. So you condemn parents talking to their own children?

😂. This reflects my point! Not being overly invested in how other people parent their children, I prefer whatever keeps their children quiet and compliant (particularly if I'm having a rare child-free journey without my DC, when I become illogically intolerant of young children). Unless I have selfish reasons for wanting otherwise - for example, a similar-age child to mine might be useful to entertain mine if so willing 😁.

My children aren't here to entertain your kids or anyone else's. It's up for you to engage with your own child. On the case of screens I do actually agree with you but my dh doesn't. He rather eat in peace whilst the kids are playing a game if we are out at a restaurant rather than messing around (by that I mean annoying each other) and disturbing other people. He reasons that if its for an hour or so it isn't a big deal. I like to take colouring books and play with them and take it in turns eating. At home they don't need to wait at the table until the food is served, I call them just as I plate up and so they do not have the TV or tablet whilst eating.

They are not talking to their own children they are playing to the room and you know that full well. And no, we don't want to look at Tabitha's Teddy thanks.

YANBU - hate to see it. Toddlers should love looking at the world around them, it gawping at a screen.

They are not talking to their own children they are playing to the room and you know that full well.

I think that's a massively defensive and shitty comment actually.

Those who are annoyed by children: what do you like about your own kids? How can you dislike other people's altogether, and at the same time like yours? I really don't get it.

Is it really so hard to just smile and wave at a young child? Do you not do small talk with adults or are you just sour-faced to everyone?

I really can't imagine thinking a child being friendly is bothersome as long as a) their parents intervene and b) they are fairly well-behaved.

Mhhmm people talk to their kids because they actually like them. Some people are struggling to grasp this

I am genuinely shocked at parents wanting other people's young kids to be silent in public.

Small children on screens depresses the hell out of me.

I agree with this hugely.

If there's one thing that this thread makes clear, it's that parents of young children can't win. Someone always has a problem.

It’s easy for me to smile and say hi to another child. For ds another child wandering up to our table when out would distress him and make things hard for him.

also in places like restaurants then children wandering around to random tables isn’t safe anyway. The last thing staff need is children wandering!

And this perfectly illustrates how intollerant of children society has become. Children with screens - bad, children behaving and interacting with the adults with them - bad, children doing literally anything other than breathing - bad....it feels like a lot of people would like us to lock children away until they are 18 (of course those 18 year olds would be expected to be well adjusted, well socialised adults able to contribute to society though).

I generally like children and I often find other people's children easier to deal with than my own DC, as they don't push my buttons in the same way.

It's an issue of time and place for me. If I'm with my DC (who is fairly outgoing and loves other children), I don't mind other people's lively and talkative children at all if it's an environment where there's not an expectation of peace and quiet. So in a busy cafe, I don't mind in the least if DC starts interacting with children at the table next to us so long as the parents don't mind and quite often we've actually ended up sitting together with other families in this way. I will haul DC away if they're trying to have a family meal or want to be left alone though.

But having a long journey or a flight by myself, child-free, is such a rare treat that I look forward to it with huge anticipation. Some quiet time to myself just to relax and enjoy the peace of not having to think about someone else's needs or be interrupted every 2 minutes. I remember the joy of travelling for work for the first time after having my DC when they were around 18 months old - 6 hours of bliss with nothing to do but read my book! I would have been very disappointed to have been sat next to a small child being 'actively parented'. Admittedly, 100% my problem, not the child's or the parent's - and had it happened, I would have hidden my disappointment and tried to pretend that I didn't mind being hit by flailing toddler limbs, not being able to have a hot drink and picking up constantly dropped toddler debris.

I am not annoyed by kids at all, I absolutely love them and I would make a 3 years old feel welcome at my restaurant dinner table if they came to show off their teddy. I do think though that when families are dining that's not an appropriate thing to allow a child to do. The only reason I raised it here is because OP was so clear she was not judging parents who give iPads but concerned about social development. Part of that development is teaching your child that in the park or other relaxed setting it is fine to approach others children, but that in a restaurant when dining with family? not so fine.

But equally we are talking about toddlers here. So yes, it's part of parenting, but we can't really expect a 2 year old to get that at the park it's ok, in another setting it's not. So people will be inconeviencd.

Also, let's not pretend parent's lives revolved entirely around parenting. Sometimes there are things we want or need to do which mean we can't, quietly, keep our 2 year old engaged on an hour long train journey whilst ensuring absolutely noone is disturbed or approached. Unless of course it's time for the tried and tested slap and nap PP referenced....

Toddlers on tablets is as bad for them as giving them some other unhealthy pacifier like sugary snacks or drinks.

It is a part of healthy psychological development to have those meltdowns on the bus, in the buggy, being told off by staff in a restaurant for running around.

It's not good to tidy away all those unwanted behaviours, because they are an important part of learning, and it is essential to learn to deal with those difficult emotions together with a caring parent. We don't yet know quite how badly screen distraction affects the psychological strength/resilience of children, and later as adults, but I would think the mental health epidemic could well be a part of that.