To not want BIL and SIL to have the children if we die?

[Veggiesintheground]

They are really lovely people, but they don’t live locally, meaning if we died DCs would have to undergo a change of school, etc. they also have two young children themselves.

To me, my brother is the better option. He does struggle with self care as he has minor LDs, but could manage with support which could be provided with money he’d get if we died.

AIBU?

Sounds like it would be unfair to put it all on your brother, if he struggles to look after himself.

One of my parents died when I was a child, I used to worry about my other parent dying too and who would end up looking after me, so I see why you are concerned about it.

For me, my mum died and everything "stayed the same", we didn't move house and I stayed in school, but of course it wasn't the same. Some of my friends had no idea how to react, and didn't speak to me for weeks/months. Only one of my friends came round in the first few months, one wrote a letter, and the others avoided me because they later admitted that they didn't know what to say. Everyone at school treated me differently. My grown up siblings and the majority of my extended family weren't great. People think grief brings people together but it really doesn't in my experience. My dad really really struggled for the first year, and it wasn't great at home, I became the parent in some ways. I would have loved to have "started over" somewhere new, I used to fantasise about running away and starting somewhere new. I really would have loved a parent figure, so for me, the priority would be the people who would be around my child if the worse happened, rather than the place, but obviously that can't be predicted because who knows how people will actually react.

Children need a lot of emotional support after a bereavement, obviously you know your brother best, but it doesn't sound like he would be able to provide that, based on what you've written in your OP.

The OP has has she doesn’t think anyone in the scenario will be a good parent, meaning she also doesn’t believe the ILs will be good parents either. In which case it’s a case of picking the best of two options where neither is perfect, and I don’t think from the very limited information OP has given its possible for anybody here to say which that is. I’m not saying her DB will be the best option, but the fact most people on this thread have written him off as an option without knowing almost anything about him other than the fact he has been described as having some mild learning disabilities comes across as disablist to me.

If he doesn't look after himself now, he's not going to be able to safely look after 2 children.

A nanny or housekeeper or not, it won't work.

This whole idea is utterly ridiculous and you said above you don't tend to talk to said family members about your wishes... I suggest you do god forbid something happened to you and your partner. Your brother may not want full custody of 2 children when he doesn't look after himself.

I’m not saying her DB will be the best option, but the fact most people on this thread have written him off as an option without knowing almost anything about him other than the fact he has been described as having some mild learning disabilities comes across as disablist to me.

The op has said he struggles with his own self care. This is not just because of the LD label.

It is seriously mischaracterising the thread to say that all the op has told us about him is that he has mild LD.

Gosh, you are being SO unreasonable. You’re prepared to limit your DC’s lives by having their guardianship given to someone who has problems with self-care???

What about someone looking out for their educational opportunities, extra-curricular activities, socialising and so on. Children can move (are you going to live where you live now, forever???) Someone who can’t look after himself is not going to give your DC the best start in life …

OP, do you think that this would kill two birds with one stone? Your brother would be looked after by your children and they’d stay in their home?

Realistically if your brother would have to hire in a housekeeper and childcare because he couldn’t keep house or look after the children himself, what exactly is he bringing to the table? And if he isn’t paying for a cleaner now, why would he once your children are living with him? Realistically, they would either end up doing all the housework themselves, or they would be living in squalor along with him (you say his house is “pretty bad”).

Your children would need a huge amount of emotional support, not to become his carers. I can see lots of advantages from his perspective, but honestly none from your children’s.

if he had a partner I think he’d be able to parent reasonably well with support

So he needs either a partner to do all the housework and childcare, or to pay for a nanny-housekeeper to do all the childcare.

OP, you clearly know that your brother cannot do this unless there is somebody else, either a partner or paid help, to do the actual parenting for him. That isn’t guardianship - your children could live in the house by themselves with 24/7 paid care (maybe not legally, but from a practical perspective there would be no difference).

Also you say there would be “a lot of money” - do you know how much a 24/7 live in nanny-housekeeper costs? Until the youngest is 18? On top of your children’s living costs. Do you seriously have a million quid or more in your estate, aside from the house, after inheritance tax?

And what happens then, your brother and the housekeeper get the boot so your children can sell the house and use their inheritance? Or your brother keeps the house and continues using your money to pay for his care, and it’s your children unceremoniously dumped out into the world to fend for themselves?

Reverse???

Having read the full replies from OP I can only assume this is another windup thread, tbh.

I am wondering that myself tbh.

@MolkosTeenageAngst

Jesus, of course the school won’t ‘report’ the uncle for having LDs, how would they even know?

The safeguarding dept in any school would let ss know if 2 pupils had lost both parents, because those kids are now vulnerable.

SS would check out the home and the extended family situation. If other family members did not feel the uncle was a great choice, then yes SS would take that into account, or they might come to that conclusion themselves, and potentially ask the court to review the guardianship order. Although in fact anyone can ask a court to review a guardianship order, it doesn’t need ss.

Which is why a family agreement is a better idea than the OP sticking in her preferences, which suspects her DP doesn’t agree with.

He cannot look after his own basic needs. He is never going to be capable of looking after children.

Op says he holds down a job which suggests he’s able to take care of his basic needs. OP describes him as being bad at taking baths/ showers and at not staying on top of cleaning, maybe not the best qualities but not so extreme as to suggest he couldn’t be a good enough patent. I know of parents who are rubbish at keeping on top of housework and I have a family member who has been a foster cater for de axes whose house is always in complete chaos with mess.

Things like having a clean house can be bought by employing a cleaner. Emotional security, love, attentiveness, an interest in the children, consistency, empathetic parenting etc - these are the things that can’t be bought. I think OP needs to look at which of her options can offer the children these qualities when deciding where they should live. DB shouldn’t be discounted just because he has mild learning difficulties, just because he is rubbish at timekeeping and doesn’t like showers doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be able to step up or that he won’t be able to have different rules for the children (I have a friend who hates all veg and mostly lives on chocolate and toast but she still manages to provide healthy nutritious meals for her DC despite not eating well herself) although the fact the kids could stay in their house also isn’t reason enough to put him as a preference above the ILs.

No patent is perfect and I expect if anybody just gave a list of all their weaker qualities here on Mumsnet as OP has done about her brother they would be told they were unfit to patent but in reality it’s impossible to know whether the DB would be capable from the tiny snippets of information OP has shared about his difficulties and how they impact on him and without sharing any of his strengths to give balance.

It sounds like you're convinced your brother is the best choice. He sounds like a lovely uncle who's involved in their lives. However, I would be very concerned that your children will be relying on paid help (nanny and housekeeper) to look after their wellbeing. What happens when the nanny isn't available? There's a huge difference between parents who use a nanny and housekeeper but can effectively parent their children and what you're saying about your brother needing that support to parent your children. Would he have other family support who could be there 24/7 as needed? Could your BIL/SIL provide that help/guidance?

I would really hope that SS would be involved in any guardianship cases. Would your brother cope with SS involvement? If they had concerns, could he work with them to resolve them? Ultimately can he do what's best for the children?

Going back to your BIL/SIL. The decent sum you're giving to your brother to buy in significant support, could that be used by your BIL/SIL to also buy in support to free up their time for all the children? Or allow them to buy a bigger house or drop their hours at work? You mention all the ways your brother could be supported by your money, but not your BIL/SIL. Why would your children be second best to their existing children? What gives you that idea? I know we would give more love/time/support to our guardian children should the worst happen.

It would be an SS matter. Kids aren’t chattel and they aren’t simply handed over. You don’t become a legal guardian because the ‘d parents say so’. They’d need formal court orders to give them PR etc. SS would be standard involvement.

@SaggyBlinders I could have written your post almost word for word. Ultimately I did move away to be with family overseas and it was the best thing that could have happened to me.

I think your brother is a strange choice, unless I've missed the fact that he has brought up children. You need to consider the best for your children, and they would need experienced parenting, which does not sound like your brother. Any idea whom they would choose? Has your brother ever had them for a weekend?

I also get your concerns about the children moving away. Our children would move away if they were orphens as our guardians live 1.5hrs aways and would stay in their location due to work. Our eldest is only a couple of years away from GCSEs so moving wouldn't be great for her at all (plus she's a teenager and all her friends are here).

But... she would be loved, well cared for, have guidance, input and aspirations. Along with her brother they would gain 3 siblings and have to share the attention and time (and maybe bedrooms). But they would also have 'new' parents and that's what they will need; the stability of parents to give them a constant (new) normal, parents to look after them and to discipline them, to teach them, to allow them to be children, to support them in their grief and anger.

Are you able to ask your brother how he would feel about it? He may not want the responsibility. I'm assuming its because your considering putting a caveat in your will about proposed care for your dcs. If he doesn't then there's your answer. I would be concerned for them all if he can't always function with personal care. How would he cope with the teenage years for instance, let alone younger.

OP - what if your kids have medical problems or become withdrawn/depressed as teens? If your DB struggles with hygiene and running a house, it might be hard for him to parent kids who also struggle? What if they needed to go to medical appointments, school meetings etc - I don’t know him, but you did mention him havi by some difficulties with timekeeping.

for what it’s worth, one of my relatives was one of 7 kids and the dad died and mum couldn’t cope, so kids were sent to different relatives, shared rooms, moved around. They had some difficult times but also some good ones and are close to the cousins they stayed with.

I don't think you decide, they get taken into the state and social services and a court would decide. Your Brother wouldn't get a sniff

I think that would be a terrible choice but given that this scenario is very unlikely, I would not worry too much. How old are the children now?

As an outsiderI think yabu. Your ils already have a family they will be able to be with their cousins., Changing schools is not the end of the world.
Practically, where would the support you brother needs to be a parent come from?

Who knows if this thread is real or not, but just in case it is and just in case others have a similar predicament, what would happen is that in the process of the courts needing to make a decision about how to confer PR for the children, they would approach CAFCASS/SSD to prepare reports.
The report would need to take account of the childrens needs and the parenting capacity of the applicant.

Of course parents with LD parent, but given the choice of options within the family of tried and tested parents who dont have concerns about their parenting capacity compared to someone who has struggles with his own care, it would be difficult to find in the favor of the latter.

Of course the children's own wishes and feelings will be paramount but that has to be balanced in with their best interests, the two are not always the same

The courts also dont expect parents to be perfect, there are children all over the country living with parents whose houses arent great, whose self care arent great, who may use substances, who have poor MH and LD and those children are just about managing to have the majority of their needs met, with lots of community support.....the problem is, those children are already with those parents, they hold PR. If you had that option but where you are looking for that person to take the care of children, why would you do that if you had 2 other options?

Of course this is all hypothetical and hopefully not necessary and OP and her partner will live long lives.

think the use of a FT nanny / housekeeper would be what he’d need

So you think your children being looked after by a revolving door of strangers is a better alternative to not moving school to live in a stable home with 2 permanent parental figures instead? Not to mention the DC would probably end up being some sort of child carers towards your brother. Okay.

At this point I'm really hoping this is a wind-up, because no caring parent would wish this on their child/ren.