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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say Kier isn't honest

146 replies

OneOfThoseOldFashionedWomen · 05/07/2022 20:56

As he says men are women. He doesn't think this, or believe it, he just says it because he is weak and a liar.

OP posts:
DonnieDark · 06/07/2022 06:23

I'd say given what's happening in the US over abortion, this isn't something we should be writing off as less important- this is how it starts down slippery slope.

We now know that no party will actually protect our rights, its not looking good.

PermanentTemporary · 06/07/2022 06:38

There are at least two women in Parliament now who have taken action over abortion rights in the UK. Nadine Dorries, a Tory cabinet minister, attempted to restrict the timescale for abortion for all women, and thank goodness failed. Stella Creasy, a Labour shadow cabinet minister, got an actual change in the law to equalise access to abortion in the UK.

This government of liars, sexual predators and corruption is not a positive for women and voting Tory for this issue will in my view damage far more women's lives.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 06/07/2022 07:16

You must be so insecure in your own femininity to feel so threatened by a trans woman.

What do you believe are the major traits of femininity ? @RockinHorseShit

RockinHorseShit · 06/07/2022 07:49

I'm not biting @Wrongkindofovercoat. I know exactly, but I'm not playing silly buggers with some arrogant man hater, who thinks they can bring me round from my wrong thinking... like I said, boring & fucking arrogant to presume you know better, when you clearly don't 🙄

OneOfThoseOldFashionedWomen · 06/07/2022 07:57

To the pp who disbelieves me and thinks less of me as a person because I belonged to a party and always voted for them, that is the way of UK politics. I live in a Con/Lib area, supporting and helping with doorstepping etc was a way to keep Con out. Also despite party leader changes the three main political party's move around a space in the political spectrum, which is the same area I am. Whilst I haven't agree with lots of policies of the Lib Dems the majority have always been palatable.

This current issue for me is bigger than politics.

I agree completely with the pp, who says about America and how quickly women can lose their rights.

To the pp that asked I will vote, I think we should. I am hoping for an independent although in practice that will be a wasted vote. If the Lib Dem candidate spoke out like some of the Labour candidates have I would consider voting for that representative.

OP posts:
entropynow · 06/07/2022 08:19

RockinHorseShit · 05/07/2022 21:28

Oh give over & go & bang another drum, the ignorance of this shit gets so tedious 🙄

THIS
God, the narrow minded obsessing of some of you people. I mean, fuck the poor, the economy, the NHS, as long as the tr**ies don't get any support.

Janesmom · 06/07/2022 08:23

Who are these strange women who are so concerned by trans women and why do they all congregate on MN? I’m yet to meet anyone in real life who cares. And before someone starts, it’s not ignorance, it’s just that none of this matters to me or the women I know. There are, however, many important issues that I do want my politicians to focus on.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 06/07/2022 08:24

@RockinHorseShit I think you must have me mixed up with someone else ?

I asked for your opinion on what constitutes femininity, I didn't criticise you or suggest you were wrong.

Shardonneigghhh · 06/07/2022 08:30

I'd be interested to know what the general stance is on the rights of trans men? It seems they are never considered in these conversations.

Jedsnewstar · 06/07/2022 08:32

Jott · 05/07/2022 21:07

If you think the Conservatoves are allies to women then you haven't been paying attention for the last twelve years.

12? That all

Supersee · 06/07/2022 08:32

A person suffering from a genuine dysphoria who just wants to live their life quietly and as authentically as they see fit poses no problems to me. Trans people have as much rights as non trans people. No one is against trans people.

However, the conversation doesn't stop there. This whole rhetoric now that men can become women simply by saying so and thus being able to be wherever women are opens up a whole raft of safeguarding issues. 98% of sexual and violent crimes are committed by men. Unfortunately they don't come with flashing signs stating which ones., and they pose no less of a risk because they put make up and a dress on, because, you know, that's what makes someone a woman.

I work in an area where this is a problem, and it is a problem, not just on MN. Come out of your bubble.

RockinHorseShit · 06/07/2022 08:38

@Wrongkindofovercoat. I see how it goes on the feminist boards, you like to think you are educating & recruiting to the cause, but that's not what a lot of us see you doing. I personally hate bigotry of any kind, not just misogyny, so you are wasting your time with me when it also includes transphobia, so I'm not biting.

DonnieDark · 06/07/2022 08:39

RockinHorseShit · 06/07/2022 07:49

I'm not biting @Wrongkindofovercoat. I know exactly, but I'm not playing silly buggers with some arrogant man hater, who thinks they can bring me round from my wrong thinking... like I said, boring & fucking arrogant to presume you know better, when you clearly don't 🙄

Calling the conversation 'playing silly buggers' is exactly why rights are rolling back. I don't do femininity, so there's zero insecurity there for me and most of the women I know raising this issue are not very feminine (whatever that means).

If you're worried about wrongthink, you're more likely to be accused of that by the ideologues with the loudest voices, who outlaw facts as hate speech. If you're not worried about that, you soon will be.

Nobody has said they hate men. The women who get so defensive about feminism are usually the ones who feel threatened, which is why they use derogatory language for other women. You're effectively policing what another woman is talking about, surely it's obvious why that's a problem.

To me this demonstrates exactly why we can't pretend this issue is any less important. If everyone sits back and calls women who speak up 'man haters', how on earth can we expect a government to protect us?

I've been saying this would happen for years and people told me not to be 'obsessed' because it would never happen, and now look where we are... exactly where a lot of us predicted.

This is one of those issues where feminists will be villified for standing up, but also blamed when our rights start disappearing.

I'm also an orphaned voter who was a member of the Labour Party until Keir. It all feels like pissing into the wind now. Sad to see how democracy has ended up here since I was young. Knowing what a woman is seems like a pretty fundamental thing when half the voting population is female. You can't apply the Equality Act, provide adequate health care, safeguard vulnerable people or close the pay gap if you don't know what a woman is.

FavouritePi · 06/07/2022 08:46

FFS, you Tories will stop at nothing to rile up the nation over issues that will change over time.

Fwiw, I'd rather a man in power who doesn't cheat and doesn't rewrite policy to allow abusers and rapists to retain their jobs. There are zero ethics in the Tory party.

Dominic Raab will pull the wool over our eyes saying he agrees with current UK law on abortion which doesn't actually support women. They will allow the Human Rights Act to be ripped from the nation and will be happy to leave all sorts of avenues open. We could well end up like the US with it's abortion laws. You only need to look at the treatment of women in the last couple of years who've been investigated by police for suspected abortions after suffering stillbirths.

But yes, of course, OP, the Lib Dems and Greens are known for being gender critical and are perfect Hmm I think you need to get your angle right before choosing a party to pretend you support.

Supersee · 06/07/2022 08:47

@RockinHorseShit what bigotry and transphobia have you seen? The word 'transphobic' has been hijacked to mean 'you will agree with us or else' to those who refuse to deny biology 🙄

RockinHorseShit · 06/07/2022 08:51

@DonnieDark you don't know me at all. Trust me I take no shit when it comes to misogyny & do understand rights can roll backwards & will & do stand up against that. I could never align myself with the trans phones on here though, as it disgusts me that women who have suffered prejudice something I've never done since 13yo, because I have a voice & can destroy a man with a few straight talking words if I so choose show so much prejudice to others, when I doubt they've ever had trans friends or even actually met & talked to a trans person properly. What we go through as women, is nothing compared to the hate & prejudice that trans folk deal with. Their stories a too often heartbreaking. Personally I couldn't give a flying fuck what anyone else wants to call themselves, non of my business, I'm not so insecure in myself that a man in a dress makes me feel in anyway threatened or less than. I respect their right not to be abused for very personal choices though.

I recommend you watch Stage Mother

FemmeNatal · 06/07/2022 08:51

RockinHorseShit · 06/07/2022 00:10

It is not a ideological statement, it is a refusal to accept biology.

No, it's a better understanding of biology than you fools clearly have🙄.

You must be so insecure in your own femininity to feel so threatened by a trans woman. Bonkers

A trans woman is the term used for a male who’s choosing to live “as” a woman for one of several reasons.

They don’t become female by doing this.

It’s probably better to use a different term, as this one does seem to confuse people as to what’s being talked about.

It’s trans men who are female.

Sirius3030 · 06/07/2022 08:53

Georgeskitchen · 05/07/2022 21:05

No way can we have someone governing the country who says this

No, let’s stick with the serial adulterer and liar, the most incompetent and dishonest PM of all time.

Lalliella · 06/07/2022 09:02

ItchyBit · 05/07/2022 22:38

They are all fucking awful. Shat on and lied to by the Tories or shat on, pitied and patronised by Labour. So many Lib Dems just seem like very strange people, likewise the Greens and the SNP are playing at running a country.

I want John Smith ☹️

I want John Smith too 😢😢😢😭😭😭

Or maybe Ed Miliband……

Lalliella · 06/07/2022 09:08

I’m a Labour Party member and am massively disappointed with Keir Starmer as leader. He’s so vague about what he stands for. And his stance now on Brexit is totally at odds with his previous position which was the reason I backed him as leader. I feel totally let down. I’m a socialist and I feel disenfranchised, I don’t want to support Labour any more.

I feel Labour are stuck between a rock and a hard place on trans issues. They want to be the party of inclusion, but it’s like the NI situation - it has no solution. Either you’re part of the TWAW brigade and trample on women’s rights, or you support biology and get accused of being a transphobe or a TERF. Tough one really. Johnson was clever when he took the side of women not having penises. Probably the majority believe that, the problem is the minority are very vocal.

OneOfThoseOldFashionedWomen · 06/07/2022 09:44

Sirius3030 · 06/07/2022 08:53

No, let’s stick with the serial adulterer and liar, the most incompetent and dishonest PM of all time.

I want a better alternative. Just because Boris is all those things listed above doesn't mean we should be happy to accept whomever.

Why can't we have a decent politician (although it has previously been explained to me that this is never possible as those that choose to go into politics are exactly the sort of people we don't want to be in politics)

Thank you to posters who have explained my point better than I can.

I have reported the derogatory term used above.

OP posts:
balalake · 06/07/2022 09:48

Whilst agreeing that I want a competent and good government, and disagreeing with self ID, I am 100% sure that Mr Johnson is the worst Prime Minister we could have, the worst in UK history, and probably only Mr Orban in Hungary is worse of all democratically elected governments.

Mr Johnson only cares about women he thinks he can perhaps have sexual relations with.

DonnieDark · 06/07/2022 10:06

RockinHorseShit · 06/07/2022 08:51

@DonnieDark you don't know me at all. Trust me I take no shit when it comes to misogyny & do understand rights can roll backwards & will & do stand up against that. I could never align myself with the trans phones on here though, as it disgusts me that women who have suffered prejudice something I've never done since 13yo, because I have a voice & can destroy a man with a few straight talking words if I so choose show so much prejudice to others, when I doubt they've ever had trans friends or even actually met & talked to a trans person properly. What we go through as women, is nothing compared to the hate & prejudice that trans folk deal with. Their stories a too often heartbreaking. Personally I couldn't give a flying fuck what anyone else wants to call themselves, non of my business, I'm not so insecure in myself that a man in a dress makes me feel in anyway threatened or less than. I respect their right not to be abused for very personal choices though.

I recommend you watch Stage Mother

As has been repeatedly said on here, yes I do know trans people. You're assuming an awful lot for someone telling others not to assume.

Do you honestly think that being able to argue against a man means you're not subject to the same prejudice as other women? I don't take any shit either but I'm still affected by laws and overarching misogyny and was one of the 40k+ women who suffer sexual violence every year. I think many women would have a problem with that comparison of oppression even if only due to the sheer scale involved.

I don't like or wear dresses so why would I feel threatened by anyone else wearing one? A 'man in a dress' is one thing, changing laws that impact negatively on women is quite another. Context matters. Plus calling a transwoman a man in a dress is transphobic isn't it?

DonnieDark · 06/07/2022 10:11

And I'm not sure what Stage Mother has got to do with it either, it's fiction.

ApplesandBunions · 06/07/2022 10:14

The idea that women can somehow opt out of sexism by being straight talking is in itself filthily misogynistic.