Prom Queen??? Really??

[FraeYah]

My niece was voted Prom Queen. She is a really lovely girl, kind and clever, and I wrote something lovely on the FB post.
But, come on. Why are schools promoting this nonsense? I'm not objecting because it's an American idea, and not because its aimed at girls (there was a Prom King...and a Prom prince); but because it's completely unnecessary and about as relevant as Miss World. They could have had a fun celebration in fancy clothes for everyone, without having to run an outdated "popularity contest" pitting children against each other.

That’s normally how it seems to go. Debutante balls for the aristocracy are prestigious, but as soon as it filters down to the masses it’s déclassé.

I said had he ever thought that however well meant that was had he ever thought how it felt to be puffing and blowing, red in the face and listening to the cheering, clapping, whistling and was he sure it sounded supportive or might it just sound like people making fun of him? He went quiet and couldn't answer me.

One of my DDs joined the high school swim team, as did two girls from the special ed department. The swim team didn't do cuts; DD usually swam a 400 individual medley around the middle of each meet, with stronger girls swimming before her and weaker girls swimming after her. In the slowest three races were the special ed girls who always got a huge cheer from everyone - both teams, and all the spectators. There were other teams with special ed members, some swimming in faster races, some in the slowest.

The celebration of different abilities is only really a problem in a society whose culture is driven by a sense of shame.

Would it be nicer to just ignore the lad puffing past the finish line in last place?

The name may be American, but the concept isn't.

for I'm to be queen of the may, mother
I'm to be queen of the may

Tennyson, in the 19th century - but the tradition is older.

and one of my favourite memories from lower high school was running the last 100m of the 1500m past all my seated cheering schoolmates - the other 7 runners had finished before I rounded the bend

That’s normally how it seems to go. Debutante balls for the aristocracy are prestigious, but as soon as it filters down to the masses it’s déclassé.

If anything, debs are gaining steam in Ireland, as is university attendance (17.5% up in the last seven years).

Such a pity snobbery and the concept of people having a 'place' play the role of wet blanket in the UK.

ie game or quick cricket and a bbq with some sneaky drinks and a fair bit of snogging
How is this more hoity toity than a bunch of delinquent oiks swigging cider in the park?

Because of the words “beach” “private school” and “bbq” math… makes it.an entirely different scenario to our common or garden teens just hanging out in a park with their pals. Which ours do run of the mill plus river swimming etc which is lovely outdoor fun but it’s nice to dress up and have an “event” for a change rather than just doing what they do most weekends anyway.

Haha, yes indeed, the beach parties where I grew up tended to be decidedly downmarket. Wrong sort of beach though - pebbly, no dunes, funky smell of dry seaweed at the high tide line, spiders galore among the stones, and an east wind that would skin a brass monkey.

I explicitly said it!

If you’re a parent that a popular and happy teen, you’ll be like some of the posters on this site. Adamant that anything other than a prom is “sad” and “missing out on fun ( 🙄)

but if you’re a parent of a child like you, who is suffering at school, you’re likely to not be.

unfortunately the former often seem incapable of seeing the other side

Yeah I’d be dropping the Love Island one for a start. 🙄

We could start raising self esteem by not accepting these superficial notions ?

My dd recently had her prom and tbh it wasn’t as ott as I think it was made out to be. There was a mixture of suit styles for the boys and dresses for the girls from high end to internet ordered that everyone had talked about before but on the day you couldn’t tell the difference! Well more in suits if I’m honest. Transport varied from camper vans, parents cars, taxis, to sports cars and limos but once again it was just pull up and get out and then the next one did. Nobody was interested or bothered by prom Queen/King and was just given to two people in the most ‘unique’ outfit and it worked actually! The after party on the other hand…… wild and crazy 😜

Dds (all girl state) school is pretty good though not perfect. There were no categories or awards. I am friends with the mums of some of the shyer girls. They all went. They had a buffet (mini burgers etc) and the dance floor looked insane. Admittedly the noise levels were deafening and the attending teachers are the ones that deserve the medals. Most dresses were ordered online sub £100 though the cool thing to do was wear an old dress of your mums and adapt it. They all looked so young and beautiful I got quite weepy! .

I think it depends on the lad, one very confident couldn't care less about sports lad might take a bow and enjoy it, a boy who has low self confidence, is struggling with lots of other things might feel suicidal. I go with protecting the second boy as the first one doesn't sound like it will make much difference to him either way.

Did you ever feel that treating the "special ed girls" differently was rather patronising? They might have liked being regarded as members of the team rather than the "special ed girls."

That sounds really nice. I think it sounds fun for everyone and very inclusive. I love the idea that the cool things to do was recycle mum's old dress. The school my kids went to were pretty good too, very hot on any signs of bullying which I valued after previous experiences.

Lovely that some schools seem to get these things right.

No I think it had never occurred to him to think how the non sports kids felt when attention was drawn to their failings. I think the option is to treat all the kids the same, well done to everyone and no patronising anyone.

I can assure you that being ridiculed and laughed at for being no good at sport is a very painful experience for some kids. Adults joining in with drawing attention to it just gives the bully permission to carry it on. Having a child who suffered exactly that you won't convince me that it is a nice thing to do.

Why do you think the last child should be treated differently to anyone else? Do we stand children up in maths and say, "Come on everyone little Johnnie is useless at maths but let's give him a clap for trying."

Did you ever feel that treating the "special ed girls" differently was rather patronising? They might have liked being regarded as members of the team rather than the "special ed girls."

No, because I do not live in a shame based society. They loved being members of the team and the team loved them right back. Their parents were very positive about their involvement in a competitive sport too. It wouldn't have occurred to anyone that they were being patronised, because they weren't. They attended all the early morning and after school practices and did all the dry land practicing too (jogging, stretching, pilates-style workouts, and some lifting of weights) and if they missed more than one practice they sat out the next meet - they had the same rules as everyone else did.

No I think it had never occurred to him to think how the non sports kids felt when attention was drawn to their failings.

How is someone coming in last 'failing'?
He finished the course. He did the best he could.

The interpretation that someone failed or was useless because he came last is yours.

If the "special ed girls" (which is a pretty vile way to describe members of the team) are treated exactly the same as everyone else then what has that got to do with everyone gathering round to clap and cheer at the kid struggling and coming in last? Either they are treated exactly the same or they aren't, you really can't have it both ways.

I didn't say he failed, I said his failings, different thing in the English language. A failing is normally defined as a weakness or shortcoming. To fail is to be unsuccessful. I hope that helps.

My child who would be coming in last would hate people drawing attention to the fact the have dyspraxia and would always come last. It doesn't matter if it was meant well or maliciously as that was how they felt and talking to other parents of children with similar issues it isn't a unique feeling. Perhaps if you had a child who told you they would rather commit suicide than go through that again you might understand.

Is your non shame based society the USA, I think you've said that before?

You’ve said two different things. Your first post explicitly said the clapping and cheering was well intentioned and now you are talking about being ridiculed and laughed at which is obviously entirely different.

What I was responding to is the fact that the kids were supportive, encouraging effort and recognising that achievement doesn’t just mean winning. A child may have achieved a new PB but because they still finished last that should be ignored? We should be trying to include more kindness and celebration to the world, not ban it.

I don’t see any difference between this and academic awards/celebrations. Of course every child knows who is weakest in maths, most kids have the capacity to recognise that people have different skill sets and celebrate the achievements of their friends even if they are miles behind, or in front of, their current level. Case in point - my DS enjoys a particular subject, two of his friends are ridiculously good at it. He cannot hope to match them but they are all delighted for each other when they reach their own goals. Nothing remotely patronising about his friends being pleased for his ‘lesser’ achievements - because they are not lesser for him!

Your comment about a shame free society being in the USA was unnecessary and reflects the rest of the anti-American theme of this thread. For info, my shame free society is in the UK.

We’ve moved a long way from proms so I am going to leave it here. I genuinely hope your DS is doing ok now.

If the "special ed girls" (which is a pretty vile way to describe members of the team) are treated exactly the same as everyone else then what has that got to do with everyone gathering round to clap and cheer at the kid struggling and coming in last? Either they are treated exactly the same or they aren't, you really can't have it both ways.

How is it 'vile'?
What's wrong with having your educational needs met in the Special Education department?

It's only vile to acknowledge a disability and speak openly of the section of the school these girls were in if you think disability is something shameful or hard to deal with or accept.

This is not the case in the community I live in (in the US), a community which funds an excellent special department educating students with SEN to age 21 at no cost to parents, providing comprehensive diagnostic services, IEPs, highly qualified teachers and support staff, assistive technology as needed, preparation and support in transitioning from school to adult life in the community - involving independent living, consumer skills, domestic, social/recreational, self-advocacy, adult services/connections, and vocational skills, occupational therapy, physical therapy, social work, and speech and language therapy, an individually-tailored social emotional development programme comprising executive function training, mindfulness, distress tolerance, emotional regulation, and interpersonal effectiveness, facilitated with DBT therapy. There is a programme facilitating return to regular school attendance for students with emotional issues (eg. depression, anxiety) which keep them from engagement. Buses to and from school are provided for all Special Ed students, including students requiring wheelchair lifts.

The two girls put in a huge effort to participate and were an inspiration to everyone else on the team. Cheering them on was a way to acknowledge that.

I didn't say he failed, I said his failings, different thing in the English language. A failing is normally defined as a weakness or shortcoming. To fail is to be unsuccessful. I hope that helps.

How is it 'a failing' on someone's part to come last in a race?

Is it 'unsuccessful' to come 19th?
11th?
4th?
2nd?
The idea that a child who finishes a race has shown some sort of personal failing is every shade of horrible under the sun.

I am loving these subversions of the prom Queen theme though.

I guess it's the American version of the May Queen which quite a lot of villages still have. But I agree, it is unnecessary.

We didn't HAVE any of that American st at Underlea (which was a special school by the way). You can blame US tv shows for putting this prom thing into kids' minds. I don't have kids and probably never will because if I did, I'd rather die than let them go to a f** prom. An important part of a teenager's life? Bollocks! I think schools up and down the UK should come to their senses and bring back the school disco. As for teaching kids to drive like they do in US schools, that's got to be the most hair-brained, half-baked idea I've ever heard!

DCs were at private school in London and they did have prom (the school actually did not call it prom but leavers' event or something but the DC still called it prom).

It was black tie and the girls mainly wore long dresses ,but lots of them were sub £100 and I don't think many did the whole spray tax/professional make up thing. DD1 did get her hair done, but she was due a haircut anyway so just timed it for the right day.

I don't think anyone turned up in limos etc. In fact, a lot of them gathered at our house beforehand (we live close to venue) and walked the half mile from here in their dresses!

I don't see anything wrong with it and don't really think of it as an Americanism (except maybe the name). We had one at my grammar when i left more than 30 years ago. My mum made my dress and a lot of my friends hired dresses - there was a local dressmaker who made a load of fairly straightforward dresses and the dresses did the rounds at the events of all the different schools in the area year after year!

I think it is a really nice thing to have a big event to end their time at school. I agree that prom queens etc are best left in America though!

It basically is the school disco at the end of term. Which happened in my day and I’m nearly 50!