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Original poster

Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

916 replies

landantan · 30/06/2022 15:37

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

OP posts:
beautyisthefaceisee · 03/07/2022 14:21

"inimitable JK Rowling" well, se certainly is that.

I asked what's actually happened.

What "genuine change" have these women managed to change?

beautyisthefaceisee · 03/07/2022 14:23

Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/07/2022 14:20

Stamping our feet and saying no is actually going pretty well thanks. The Forstater, Bailey, Bell cases, the Nolan podcasts, all the women out there patiently writing to councils and schools pointing out that the protected characteristics are “sex” and “gender reassignment” not “gender” & “gender identity” so policies are changed & read as they should.

using female pronouns for men so they don’t feel sad leads directly to men in woman’s sorts, prisons, refuges & in programmes designed to increase female representation in STEM & politics. Women are not support humans. It’s not our job to validate men with issues. A man is no more a woman than he’s a banana or an aardvark.

i used to be like a number of posters here. I thought “what harm can it do do call Dave, Jane if it makes them happy?” then I realised all the harm redefining women to include men can do

i don’t believe in gender identify and I’d no more declare my pronouns or expect others too than I’d declare my religion or political beliefs on my email signature

But the polices haven't been changed, have they?

Our latest policy as I said upthread certainly doesn't do anything like that.

But you can all keep dreaming that anyone is remotely interested in podcasts or tweets by JK Rowling.

We won't see a change in our lifetime, and if we do it will be in favour of trans. Radical feminists and TRA's have made compromise impossible.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2022 14:23

How is stomping your feet and saying NO going for you?

Slightly better than when we were accepting pronouns and being kind and agreeing TWAW because we thought they meant we should accept TW as if they were women socially, not that womanhood itself is a collection of mental traits found in either sex and therefore male people's experience of womanhood has no less authority than female people's. We didn't think saying TWAW to support vulnerable trans women being left alone to live their lives would turn into male bodied people in women's sport, or prisons, or taking women's officerships, or male rapists and sex offenders, crimes that are common in males and rare in females, being accepted as women, because that's not reasonable and most people are reasonable and know sex matters.

And yet, here we are. All those things are happening and anyone saying publicly this is not fair on female people is dismissed as a bigot because trans women ARE women, and if it turns out some women have the type of body that is better at sports or more likely to be physically or sexually violent or comes with 30 years of male privilege well so what? You are all women together and you should celebrate the achievements of the people who took them from you.

So now we say NO because every time we said "Yes, but...." they just took the Yes and gave us No Debate.

The only difference between us and you is we already tried the things you think will work and know they didn't.

You should look at the Hansard record from when the GRA was being debated. See things that were dismissed as fear-mongering and never-going-to-happen at the time are now framed as totally valid and transphobic to question.

You keep saying we should not base our arguments on the TRAs and that most trans people and their allies share many of our concerns. So why is it that TRAs are being left to do the lobbying and set the political and commercial agenda? Why are these moderate trans and trans-ally voices, the ones you say agree with us on many things, not speaking up? They are assuming rational voices will prevail but not taking the risk of being those rational voices. They leave it to us so they can denounce us and stay safe even when we say what they also think in private.

You say you don't want this debate to be a polarised screaming match between what you see as two equally bad sides, but your solution seems to be try to move one of the sides nearer the centre and hope the other takes the hint when it needs to be for the people already in the centre to find their voices and bloody well speak up!

(and let's be honest, we all know the reason you are trying to move us and not the TRA side us because it's safer to disagree with us than them)

onlywhenidream · 03/07/2022 14:24

Genuinely people are realising the harm that some trans ideology does to children , to women and to transgender people

Genuinely more and more people are saying that there are boundaries

Genuinely more and more people are starting to accept that womens rights must Coexist with transgender rights

Genuinely people are more allowed to speak up

beautyisthefaceisee · 03/07/2022 14:26

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2022 14:23

How is stomping your feet and saying NO going for you?

Slightly better than when we were accepting pronouns and being kind and agreeing TWAW because we thought they meant we should accept TW as if they were women socially, not that womanhood itself is a collection of mental traits found in either sex and therefore male people's experience of womanhood has no less authority than female people's. We didn't think saying TWAW to support vulnerable trans women being left alone to live their lives would turn into male bodied people in women's sport, or prisons, or taking women's officerships, or male rapists and sex offenders, crimes that are common in males and rare in females, being accepted as women, because that's not reasonable and most people are reasonable and know sex matters.

And yet, here we are. All those things are happening and anyone saying publicly this is not fair on female people is dismissed as a bigot because trans women ARE women, and if it turns out some women have the type of body that is better at sports or more likely to be physically or sexually violent or comes with 30 years of male privilege well so what? You are all women together and you should celebrate the achievements of the people who took them from you.

So now we say NO because every time we said "Yes, but...." they just took the Yes and gave us No Debate.

The only difference between us and you is we already tried the things you think will work and know they didn't.

You should look at the Hansard record from when the GRA was being debated. See things that were dismissed as fear-mongering and never-going-to-happen at the time are now framed as totally valid and transphobic to question.

You keep saying we should not base our arguments on the TRAs and that most trans people and their allies share many of our concerns. So why is it that TRAs are being left to do the lobbying and set the political and commercial agenda? Why are these moderate trans and trans-ally voices, the ones you say agree with us on many things, not speaking up? They are assuming rational voices will prevail but not taking the risk of being those rational voices. They leave it to us so they can denounce us and stay safe even when we say what they also think in private.

You say you don't want this debate to be a polarised screaming match between what you see as two equally bad sides, but your solution seems to be try to move one of the sides nearer the centre and hope the other takes the hint when it needs to be for the people already in the centre to find their voices and bloody well speak up!

(and let's be honest, we all know the reason you are trying to move us and not the TRA side us because it's safer to disagree with us than them)

No, it isn't. And tbh some of the poundings I've had on here have been equally as bad, so I'm afraid you're wrong there.

I certainly don't see it as two "equally" bad sides.

I just think genuine trans people are being treated bloody unfairly by feminists, and I don't think genuine trans people are treating feminists badly. So taking out the TRA's and the radicals, I'm going with the genuine trans people.

Rosehugger · 03/07/2022 14:29

If I were called an ambiguous name like Alex or Charlie it would really annoy me to declare my sex in an email. Why? So people can decide whether they going to be all pally and chummy or if they are going to be patronising and talk down to me?

BaileysforBreakfast · 03/07/2022 14:34

Where I work, a guide to inclusive language has just been published. It includes the following advice:
As a general rule, it is good practice to get into the habit of stating your own pronouns when you introduce yourself, and by the same token, asking others for their pronouns upon introduction. This can take the form of, ‘My name is _ and I use she/her pronouns,’ and ‘Do you mind me asking what pronouns you use?’ If you do not feel comfortable disclosing your pronouns in a verbal context, you
can also wear a visual prompt – pronoun badges are available to be collected from the Equality and Diversity office.
I cannot imagine any circumstances where I would be comfortable doing this when first meeting someone. Never mind, I can wear a badge, I mean 'visual prompt' instead. Hmm

onlywhenidream · 03/07/2022 14:35

Genuine trans people - let's park what you mean by that

Why do you think they are being treated unfairly ?

Clymene · 03/07/2022 14:37

Legal Feminist wrote a blog post on this topic a few months ago following a Twitter storm after they disagreed with acas's recommendations to include pronouns. Well worth a read www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2022/04/26/grammar-and-grievance/

The level of vitriol from lovely 'genuine transpeople' is astounding

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2022 14:48

I just think genuine trans people are being treated bloody unfairly by feminists, and I don't think genuine trans people are treating feminists badly. So taking out the TRA's and the radicals, I'm going with the genuine trans people.

Is Katy Montgomery a genuine trans person? Is Gemma Stone? Is Veronica Ivy?

How about these people terfisaslur.com/ are they genuine?

If they are not, where are all the genuine trans people standing up to say "Not in my name?"

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2022 14:53

No, it isn't. And tbh some of the poundings I've had on here have been equally as bad, so I'm afraid you're wrong there.

Oh come on. Has anyone on here doxxed you? Threatened you? Complaining about your employer to you? Published your home address and posed with a pipebomb?

I'm sorry you felt some posters treated you disrespectfully but to claim what you experienced here is "equally bad" to what you'd face if you said "I think some things should stay single sex" on a popular TRA site just tells me you have no idea what the TRA people are actually saying and doing.

beautyisthefaceisee · 03/07/2022 14:54

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2022 14:48

I just think genuine trans people are being treated bloody unfairly by feminists, and I don't think genuine trans people are treating feminists badly. So taking out the TRA's and the radicals, I'm going with the genuine trans people.

Is Katy Montgomery a genuine trans person? Is Gemma Stone? Is Veronica Ivy?

How about these people terfisaslur.com/ are they genuine?

If they are not, where are all the genuine trans people standing up to say "Not in my name?"

Is there a reason not one of you is capable of having a debate without mentioning extremists on either side?

Re where are they - hiding away from you guys because you spend your days writing about their beliefs being gender woo, nonsense, taking the piss and generally excluding them from your cause. Can't think why they wouldn't want to speak up.

beautyisthefaceisee · 03/07/2022 14:54

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2022 14:53

No, it isn't. And tbh some of the poundings I've had on here have been equally as bad, so I'm afraid you're wrong there.

Oh come on. Has anyone on here doxxed you? Threatened you? Complaining about your employer to you? Published your home address and posed with a pipebomb?

I'm sorry you felt some posters treated you disrespectfully but to claim what you experienced here is "equally bad" to what you'd face if you said "I think some things should stay single sex" on a popular TRA site just tells me you have no idea what the TRA people are actually saying and doing.

But I don't care what they're saying and doing.

I care about genuine trans people, and women.

beautyisthefaceisee · 03/07/2022 14:55

onlywhenidream · 03/07/2022 14:35

Genuine trans people - let's park what you mean by that

Why do you think they are being treated unfairly ?

I mean trans people who are not the same old names trotted out on here as a "gotcha", as well you know.

re your second question - have a read of the feminism boards and the way trans people are spoken about.

Clymene · 03/07/2022 15:08

Where are the trans voices speaking up against the death threats omen are being subjected to @beautyisthefaceisee?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2022 15:10

Is there a reason not one of you is capable of having a debate without mentioning extremists on either side?

Firstly, it is not "either side". There are three main sides. Feminists are not aligned with the people who want to enforce traditional gender roles and those are the people the extremism against trans rights mostly comes from.

Secondly, you say the TRA view that sex is not socially significant and self-defined gender should take its place for all legal and social matters is extremist but as you yourself gave an example of, it is being taught in schools. It is being taught in professional training in public and private sectors. I have myself sat in it. It is the stated view of three of our four main political parties in England. It is being used by the police to define hate crimes.

If the extremists are setting the agenda then we need to talk about the extremists. Nice, rational people hiding behind the sofa are sadly irrelevant until they act.

Re where are they - hiding away from you guys because you spend your days writing about their beliefs being gender woo, nonsense, taking the piss and generally excluding them from your cause. Can't think why they wouldn't want to speak up.

I'm not asking why they are not here. Why would they be? We are not the ones they need to convince. I'm asking why they are not speaking up in public debate? Why they are not telling the politicians of those parties "no, you've got this wrong, you are listening to extremists"? Why when they see a social media pile on they are not saying "actually I am trans and I agree"?

Some are of course, but the TRA voices, the ones you claim are an extreme minority, are loudest. And as I said a few posts ago, until people like you say clearly that your kind choice to use pronouns is not an acceptance of the whole TRA project, I'm afraid that's what it's doing.

beautyisthefaceisee · 03/07/2022 15:13

Clymene · 03/07/2022 15:08

Where are the trans voices speaking up against the death threats omen are being subjected to @beautyisthefaceisee?

Again with the extremists.

I dare you to have a debate about trans, pronouns etc without mentioning TRA's. I manage it without talking about batshit feminists.

I dont know clymene, I can't think why genuine trans people wouldnt want to speak up on social media....

YouSetTheTone · 03/07/2022 15:15

@beautyisthefaceisee you need to take up your complaints with Stonewall and TRA groups if you think ‘genuine trans people’ are suffering because feminists are saying NO. Women didn’t start this. Women have spent years trying to have discussions and solutions. Women are not backing down and playing nicely anymore. If you want solutions then you need to bring the other side to the table because women have been there for years, waiting.

But when we’ve got a point where a rape victim is being abused and pilloried for requesting ONE additional counselling group that is for women only, well then my alliegance is to women and ‘genuine trans people’ need to show some compassion about where this situation has placed women. Do you agree with what the author of the article below says? Think about her last line.

thecritic.co.uk/spaces-of-our-own/

ExitChasedByABee · 03/07/2022 15:15

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2022 14:23

How is stomping your feet and saying NO going for you?

Slightly better than when we were accepting pronouns and being kind and agreeing TWAW because we thought they meant we should accept TW as if they were women socially, not that womanhood itself is a collection of mental traits found in either sex and therefore male people's experience of womanhood has no less authority than female people's. We didn't think saying TWAW to support vulnerable trans women being left alone to live their lives would turn into male bodied people in women's sport, or prisons, or taking women's officerships, or male rapists and sex offenders, crimes that are common in males and rare in females, being accepted as women, because that's not reasonable and most people are reasonable and know sex matters.

And yet, here we are. All those things are happening and anyone saying publicly this is not fair on female people is dismissed as a bigot because trans women ARE women, and if it turns out some women have the type of body that is better at sports or more likely to be physically or sexually violent or comes with 30 years of male privilege well so what? You are all women together and you should celebrate the achievements of the people who took them from you.

So now we say NO because every time we said "Yes, but...." they just took the Yes and gave us No Debate.

The only difference between us and you is we already tried the things you think will work and know they didn't.

You should look at the Hansard record from when the GRA was being debated. See things that were dismissed as fear-mongering and never-going-to-happen at the time are now framed as totally valid and transphobic to question.

You keep saying we should not base our arguments on the TRAs and that most trans people and their allies share many of our concerns. So why is it that TRAs are being left to do the lobbying and set the political and commercial agenda? Why are these moderate trans and trans-ally voices, the ones you say agree with us on many things, not speaking up? They are assuming rational voices will prevail but not taking the risk of being those rational voices. They leave it to us so they can denounce us and stay safe even when we say what they also think in private.

You say you don't want this debate to be a polarised screaming match between what you see as two equally bad sides, but your solution seems to be try to move one of the sides nearer the centre and hope the other takes the hint when it needs to be for the people already in the centre to find their voices and bloody well speak up!

(and let's be honest, we all know the reason you are trying to move us and not the TRA side us because it's safer to disagree with us than them)

This is in spades.

beautyisthefaceisee · 03/07/2022 15:17

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2022 15:10

Is there a reason not one of you is capable of having a debate without mentioning extremists on either side?

Firstly, it is not "either side". There are three main sides. Feminists are not aligned with the people who want to enforce traditional gender roles and those are the people the extremism against trans rights mostly comes from.

Secondly, you say the TRA view that sex is not socially significant and self-defined gender should take its place for all legal and social matters is extremist but as you yourself gave an example of, it is being taught in schools. It is being taught in professional training in public and private sectors. I have myself sat in it. It is the stated view of three of our four main political parties in England. It is being used by the police to define hate crimes.

If the extremists are setting the agenda then we need to talk about the extremists. Nice, rational people hiding behind the sofa are sadly irrelevant until they act.

Re where are they - hiding away from you guys because you spend your days writing about their beliefs being gender woo, nonsense, taking the piss and generally excluding them from your cause. Can't think why they wouldn't want to speak up.

I'm not asking why they are not here. Why would they be? We are not the ones they need to convince. I'm asking why they are not speaking up in public debate? Why they are not telling the politicians of those parties "no, you've got this wrong, you are listening to extremists"? Why when they see a social media pile on they are not saying "actually I am trans and I agree"?

Some are of course, but the TRA voices, the ones you claim are an extreme minority, are loudest. And as I said a few posts ago, until people like you say clearly that your kind choice to use pronouns is not an acceptance of the whole TRA project, I'm afraid that's what it's doing.

Why on earth would they speak up on social media and in public places when they are spoken about the way that they are? I wouldn't!

You're expecting them to speak up when you publicly treat them as collateral and you yourself called them "irrelevant"

So you want them to put their neck on the line so that they can be thrown to the wolf that is social media - will you be there to defend them when they get ripped to shreds? Course you won't.

Of course it's not an acceptance of the whole TRA project. How come it's acceptable to pretty much imply I'm on board with TRA - wasnt it originally that that was a strikable offence?

They are a bloody minority. The fact they are loudest is neither here nor there. I have to suffer far more of people like JKR than I do them - it is easy to ignore them. They are not sitting on MN or in the street.

Fact is, the reason nobody can have a debate without referring to them is because they are used as a "gotcha" because you can't actually tell me what risk a genuine trans person is if they don't want to use your spaces other than the petulant "BUT THEYRE NOT A WOMAN, I AM".

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2022 15:17

But I don't care what they're saying and doing.

Then you were wrong to claim "some of the poundings I've had on here have been equally as bad" when you actually had no idea whether that's true or not, and in doing so you very badly misrepresented us by implying posters on FWR would engage in doxxing and threats.

I care about genuine trans people, and women.

Of course you do. I do too. But I also care about women. And until these moderate voices speak up and make it clear that day to day courtesy like pronouns is not an endorsement for the damaging credo that gender must always come before sex, my support for trans people cannot include actions that also damage women.

beautyisthefaceisee · 03/07/2022 15:20

YouSetTheTone · 03/07/2022 15:15

@beautyisthefaceisee you need to take up your complaints with Stonewall and TRA groups if you think ‘genuine trans people’ are suffering because feminists are saying NO. Women didn’t start this. Women have spent years trying to have discussions and solutions. Women are not backing down and playing nicely anymore. If you want solutions then you need to bring the other side to the table because women have been there for years, waiting.

But when we’ve got a point where a rape victim is being abused and pilloried for requesting ONE additional counselling group that is for women only, well then my alliegance is to women and ‘genuine trans people’ need to show some compassion about where this situation has placed women. Do you agree with what the author of the article below says? Think about her last line.

thecritic.co.uk/spaces-of-our-own/

I don't need to do shit. I'm not the one who has escalated the issue to the point that they are now an island and have nowhere to go with it. Women have done that. And they are now losing.

Is there a reason you've put "genuine" in speech marks? The only reason i need to say that is because the vast majority of people in these boards disagree with trans as a concept (and then have the bollocks to tell trans people what they should be doing!)

Why should genuine trans people show compassion for women when women show zero compassion for them? The sad thing is, they probably would. My friend certainly would. You're just not interested in their views because you can't separate trans and TRA's.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2022 15:21

Fact is, the reason nobody can have a debate without referring to them is because they are used as a "gotcha" because you can't actually tell me what risk a genuine trans person is if they don't want to use your spaces other than the petulant "BUT THEYRE NOT A WOMAN, I AM".

I explained in depth last night. And no, it's not because "BUT THEYRE NOT A WOMAN, I AM". It's because female voices and needs exist separate to male and that needs to be recognised and respected.

beautyisthefaceisee · 03/07/2022 15:21

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2022 15:17

But I don't care what they're saying and doing.

Then you were wrong to claim "some of the poundings I've had on here have been equally as bad" when you actually had no idea whether that's true or not, and in doing so you very badly misrepresented us by implying posters on FWR would engage in doxxing and threats.

I care about genuine trans people, and women.

Of course you do. I do too. But I also care about women. And until these moderate voices speak up and make it clear that day to day courtesy like pronouns is not an endorsement for the damaging credo that gender must always come before sex, my support for trans people cannot include actions that also damage women.

I haven't been doxxed or had threats but I've had some pretty foul things said to me. These boards can be brutal and you know it.

I don't disagree with your second post. But I think feminists unforrtunately now cannot expect trans people to do anything for them. Why should they? I wouldn't.

beautyisthefaceisee · 03/07/2022 15:21

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/07/2022 15:21

Fact is, the reason nobody can have a debate without referring to them is because they are used as a "gotcha" because you can't actually tell me what risk a genuine trans person is if they don't want to use your spaces other than the petulant "BUT THEYRE NOT A WOMAN, I AM".

I explained in depth last night. And no, it's not because "BUT THEYRE NOT A WOMAN, I AM". It's because female voices and needs exist separate to male and that needs to be recognised and respected.

But it is. It's not my teenage trans pupil making the law, so why are they the ones being mocked and ridiculed on the internet?