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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To draw your attention to this U.K. abortion law court case?

274 replies

Wouldloveanother · 29/06/2022 20:29

Evening ladies
in light of Roe v Wade, it seems more important than ever that we are vigilant about abortion rights here in Britain.
there is an upcoming case at the Court of Appeal which seeks to repeal section 1(1)(d) of the Abortion Act 1967. Which permits later terminations for fetal abnormalities.
the hearing is on 13th July (next month).
very few posters seemed to be aware of it, so thought I would open it here for anyone who wishes to discuss.
thanks

OP posts:
FlimsySteve · 30/06/2022 16:28

crossstitchingnana · 30/06/2022 14:19

IMO abortion after 24 weeks (when life is viable) is wrong. I would carry a baby with no possible chance of life, outside the womb, to term.

Why 24 weeks specifically? What about viability makes it different to a 23 weeker.

Hoowhoowho · 30/06/2022 16:53

I think the law should be changed. It shouldn’t discriminate, it should permit termination of pregnancy to term regardless of disability or other reason.

I have been in the situation of a life limiting diagnosis shortly before 24 weeks and chose not to terminate but that was my choice.

the issue shouldn’t be termination. Whether you choose to use your body to support another is always up to you. The issue is euthanasia. When it is reasonable to stop the heart of a foetus before birth? When it is reasonable to not resuscitate and provide palliative care only? Any woman should be free to end her pregnancy at 32 weeks/39 weeks, anytime at all. It is whether we end the life of the baby before delivery, whether we provide life sustaining care post delivery that are the questions for the law and the ethicists

pointythings · 30/06/2022 17:22

@Hoowhoowho agreed. I trust women. It is absurd to think that a woman in full mental health would just frivolously decide to have an abortion on the way to the delivery ward.

If Heidi and her brigade want equality, they should have it: abortion on demand, to term. Because I trust women to take good decisions.

DorritLittle · 30/06/2022 17:58

It's always very easy to make these kinds of decisions when it's purely hypothetical.

This. I trust women to make their own decisions based on the individual circumstances.

MidwichCuckoo · 30/06/2022 18:09

I had my anomaly scan at 23 weeks in 2004. It was when I was offered it rather than me delaying it in any way.

sashh · 01/07/2022 02:28

Dobbysgotthesocks · 30/06/2022 00:13

Personally I don't think abortion for non fatal conditions such as Down syndrome should be allowed beyond 24 weeks. If they have further complications beyond the DS that make it a fatal condition or if it puts the mothers life at risk then that's different. I do think abortion for severe / fatal conditions should be allowed to term. But Down syndrome doesn't fall into that category.
As for woman's rights and womens right to choose I'm sorry but she has had time to make decisions about the pregnancy. If she didn't want to be pregnant then she could have aborted sooner. She doesn't have the right to abort a healthy baby post 24 weeks so would have to continue the pregnancy regardless the same should apply to non fatal conditions.

And if the mother really feels she cannot cope with a child with DS then there is always the option to surrender the child to foster care and adoption.

I think the problem with Down syndrome is that we only see people like Heidi and her husband, people living semi independently and having a good life.

But not all DS is like that.

Medical definition of a syndrome is a list of features that can be present but are rarely all present in one person.

Heart conditions are common as are problems with sight and hearing.

A child may be deaf and blind, unable to eat speak or toilet train.

One feature of DS is a weak immune system so many people with DS are susceptible to infections, before we had antibiotics they would die in their teens.

Iflyaway · 01/07/2022 02:46

A termination on medical grounds must be one of the hardest decisions any parents will have to face.

I agree.

But you talk about "parents". Fair enough.

I'm remembering a dear friend who was raped at 17. Single of course.

She denied being pregnant (wouldn't acknowledge it). She had an abortion at 5 months. I absolutely stood by her.

I've had an abortion too. No way could I have had that child then.

I'm a mother now. I was ready for it. Oh, and single too. much better

Personally, I think every woman who wants a child should be ready to do it alone. You never know how life works out.

WiddlinDiddlin · 01/07/2022 04:42

Yep @sashh some people with DS are very capable and independent. But some won't be.

The side we don't see is the 70+ year old parents or sole parent because one of them has died, trying to take care of a very dependent, high-care-needs young adult. And I think you need to have lived under a rock to not know how little support and care is out there for such cases!

The human cost of raising a very dependent disabled child to adulthood and beyond is huge, and many people are bullied into agreeing to it when they don't actually want to, don't feel they're capable, genuinely are NOT capable... and its misery, for everyone.

Olivestone · 01/07/2022 06:57

SnackSizeRaisin · 30/06/2022 14:49

Cardiac arrest is not painful. And an injection is considered only mildly painful. Being born is probably far more painful

How does anyone know if an injection into the foetal heart is 'only mildly painful'?
It's definitely not the same as a vitamin K injection into the heal of a new born.

'Being born is probably far more painful'!? You don't know this.

Sometimes we can't and don't know the answer and that should be the answer so people can make an informed choice.

Queenoftheashes · 01/07/2022 07:22

I’ve always thought being squeezed out of a vagina sounded pretty painful tbh

ApplesandBunions · 01/07/2022 07:44

Yes because people are absolutely beating adoption agencies doors down to adopt kids with disabilities, particularly to adopt children who may NEVER live independently.

Honestly, the naivety on display is breathtaking. The idea that anyone could think it the most ethical choice to bring a child into the world specifically to consign to the foster system is particularly deranged.

We all know full well what happens when children are brought into the world with nobody who wants to look after them. And some people want to make more of that.

LeavesOnTrees · 01/07/2022 08:14

We all know full well what happens when children are brought into the world with nobody who wants to look after them. And some people want to make more of that.

You just need to google Romanian orphanages.

Talkingabouttea · 01/07/2022 08:33

@Hoowhoowho that post summarises how I feel about this as well. Thank you for writing it.

Wouldloveanother · 01/07/2022 08:42

WiddlinDiddlin · 01/07/2022 04:42

Yep @sashh some people with DS are very capable and independent. But some won't be.

The side we don't see is the 70+ year old parents or sole parent because one of them has died, trying to take care of a very dependent, high-care-needs young adult. And I think you need to have lived under a rock to not know how little support and care is out there for such cases!

The human cost of raising a very dependent disabled child to adulthood and beyond is huge, and many people are bullied into agreeing to it when they don't actually want to, don't feel they're capable, genuinely are NOT capable... and its misery, for everyone.

I think it’s telling that so few of the activists have adult disabled children, they tend to be people with primary school aged children or babies/toddlers. I’ve heard that generally that 5-18 is the easiest because they go to school and have that stimulation/routine. It’s afterwards that’s more problematic as most are unable to gain regular paid employment or live independently. I know one lady with a son with DS, she has said how hard she finds it to keep her son entertained and find things for him to do every day.

OP posts:
Spaceprincess · 01/07/2022 08:44

I also know someone carrying a baby incompatible with life who had a post 24 weeks termination.
The alternative was carrying a baby to term who would have been in pain and died at birth or shortly afterwards.
Can you imagine being forced to wait 40 weeks for your baby to die?

123ROLO · 01/07/2022 09:35

I've never been pregnant. If I was in the position at 24 weeks and finding out the fetus was incompatible with life. I don't know what I would do. But I'd appreciate having the option. I'm edging on termination, as I wouldn't want to prolong unnecessary suffering.

People have a habit of romanticising children's lives with disabilities.

Down syndrome the most common one. "My sister has a son with down syndrome and he is the most loving little boy ever, he's starting nursery next week" ...etc. Great, genuinely. In those cases I'm glad the child is alive, happy and doing well. I'm happy people chose to continue with their pregnancy and are able to provide a disabled child a loving, supportive home, I just don't think people should be shamed for not being able to do that.

People don't talk about the opposite end of the spectrum. I worked on a child's inpatient learning disability ward, of the 10 patients 4 were down syndrome. They were incontinent, one was deaf, one was aggressive and mostly had to be kept in isolation, only one of them was verbal, needed supervision when eating as they were choking risks. Of the other children, most of whom had disabilities that were likely detectable in utero, some needed daily restraints as they would try to hurt themselves or others, I remember taking a 12 year old to hospital as he bit a chunk out of his own hand. There was no reasoning with them, most lacked capacity. These children will have a life of care, it wasn't even a case of their parents couldn't cope, they were deemed unsafe to be managed in anything other than a secure facility.

When you have a child with a disability, you might have a child with a few additional needs, but with a bit of support, therapy, etc they go on to leave fulfilling lives.

Or you might have a child that with such severe needs, that as a mum you have to give up work, any career aspirations out of the window, you have to give up social events, perhaps the dreams of having another child. You have to accept that your life will be 24/7 care. When the child gets older, most parents are able to relax, get their time back. But, no, this will be your role till you physically can't manage any longer, then you enter old age with the fear of how your child will be looked after when you are gone.

I once visited a home of an elderly couple in their 80s, who were continously slapped and kicked by their severely disabled 60 year old son. The only time they ever in their life they got any break from care was when he went to a day centre 3 afternoons a week. They occasionally had to physically restrain their 60 year old son as he would hit himself.

If you have a disabled child, you can potentially have a great life with a few extra challenges but still a great life. Or you can have something that I just described above. A woman should be able to chose whether or not she is capable of potentially giving up the rest of her life to be a carer, it really isn't a flippant decision.

This isn't an argument of whether the disabled child's life is less valuable, of course it isn't. It's a case of whether a woman feels able to meet the childs/adults needs in worse case scenario. And she should not be shamed for not being able.

cdba88 · 01/07/2022 09:49

LittleBoPeep345 · 29/06/2022 21:55

Sometimes a lethal fetal abnormality is diagnosed in late pregnancy by chance

What if it is a non lethal abnormality diagnosed in late pregnancy? What is the difference between terminating a pregnancy at 39 weeks and killing a baby that has been born with a disability at one week old?

But you can choose never to have one, if you dont want to, if you dont agree with it.

Why should what you think is right or wrong impact my right to choose?

If I was pregnant with a baby who was suffering every day inside my uterus, who I knew would suffer at birth, who wouldn't survive. You bet I'd want to make the stop. Why would I want to prolong the suffering of my much wanted baby?

EvilPea · 01/07/2022 09:53

If HCP are pressuring people to have abortions, that’s where the campaign needs to be. Not in the courts preventing others accessing medical care.

Given how our services are cut to the bones now, it complicates things further, scans and tests are not done quickly enough, counselling not always available in a timely manner. And services post birth for support with additional needs is just not where it should be either.
all of that becomes more of an issue with a law change.

ultimately though, if YOU don’t want an abortion. Don’t have one. It’s not for me to tell you want to do. I think we have the balance just about right.

EvilPea · 01/07/2022 09:54

I’m really sorry for anyone who has had to make that difficult choice Flowers

SomePosters · 01/07/2022 10:04

Hcp aren’t pressuring people to have abortions

they pointed out to me it was an option and when I said it wasn’t they accepted that and made a care plan going forward

As in the cases of terminal children though the HCPs have a better idea of what your future holds than you do.

The saddest thing I’ve ever found on the internet was a group of mums campaigning for better information to be give to parent of pre term babies about their outcomes.
As hormonal new mums they all said ‘save my babies life at any cost’ and now regret condemning their child to a life of suffering they didn’t understand.

disability is not romantic, it’s hard to watch your child be the one who can’t keep up with the others, to give them course after course of anti biotics to keep them alive, it’s hard to know that without ongoing medical intervention your child would die and to see them lined up for surgery after surgery

so no, keeping a pregnancy to punt them into the care system for life is not more ethical than termination

it’s like eating meat but saying you’d never kill anything. You are, you just aren’t looking at it!

sashh · 01/07/2022 10:07

Olivestone · 01/07/2022 06:57

How does anyone know if an injection into the foetal heart is 'only mildly painful'?
It's definitely not the same as a vitamin K injection into the heal of a new born.

'Being born is probably far more painful'!? You don't know this.

Sometimes we can't and don't know the answer and that should be the answer so people can make an informed choice.

The injection is into the amniotic fluid, it is digoxin, a medicine prescribed to many people to slow their heart rate.

I doubt a heart getting gradually slower is painful. In utero there is no breathing so there is going to be no gasping for air.

If you don't have heart disease your heart slows as you fall asleep, if there is any sensation it is likely to be that.

That is if the abnormality doesn't affect the brain or nervous system.

Slothtoes · 01/07/2022 10:10

Thank you for your thoughtful posts ROLO and SomePosters
I think it’s actually very cruel, the fake gloss that the anti-choice will put on to abortion. Women must always have the choice. And be informed properly.

MaChienEstUnDick · 01/07/2022 10:14

AgathaMystery · 30/06/2022 00:00

I think the big writing was absolutely perfect, and my condolences about your wee boy.

I feel it It important to remember that the fetal anomaly scan is not foolproof. Here is what I am seeing in my professional work:

-a rise in obese women which makes it very VERY difficult for us to visualise fetal anatomy on ultrasound.
-a lack of understanding that, for example, only 50% of cardiac anomalies are detected as the FAS (20 week fetal anomaly scan), meaning that in turn we have…
-a rise in late term anomalies identified due to increased fetal surveillance thanks to care bundles such as smoking cessation, low PAPP-A, diabetes, prev SFGA baby, rainbow clinics meaning women who have had pregnancy losses have more scans
etc.

you get the idea. So now, we see the ventricularmegaly that’s wasn’t visible on the FAS at the 28 week growth scan - it’s massive, woman was low risk on her screening so now it’s time for invasive testing or best case a cell free fetal DNA test. Let’s say that’s inconclusive, now we have to run the karotype… meanwhile WEEKS are ticking away.

No woman makes these decisions likely. When we do a very late TFMR it’s a tragedy for everyone, including the practioners. We go home and we think about you and your baby and we feel very very sad.

Choice for women is essential. No one should be forced to give birth or parent.

You're a shero @AgathaMystery thank you for your care of women.

Lola4321 · 01/07/2022 11:13

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

restedbutexhausted · 01/07/2022 11:29

123ROLO · 01/07/2022 09:35

I've never been pregnant. If I was in the position at 24 weeks and finding out the fetus was incompatible with life. I don't know what I would do. But I'd appreciate having the option. I'm edging on termination, as I wouldn't want to prolong unnecessary suffering.

People have a habit of romanticising children's lives with disabilities.

Down syndrome the most common one. "My sister has a son with down syndrome and he is the most loving little boy ever, he's starting nursery next week" ...etc. Great, genuinely. In those cases I'm glad the child is alive, happy and doing well. I'm happy people chose to continue with their pregnancy and are able to provide a disabled child a loving, supportive home, I just don't think people should be shamed for not being able to do that.

People don't talk about the opposite end of the spectrum. I worked on a child's inpatient learning disability ward, of the 10 patients 4 were down syndrome. They were incontinent, one was deaf, one was aggressive and mostly had to be kept in isolation, only one of them was verbal, needed supervision when eating as they were choking risks. Of the other children, most of whom had disabilities that were likely detectable in utero, some needed daily restraints as they would try to hurt themselves or others, I remember taking a 12 year old to hospital as he bit a chunk out of his own hand. There was no reasoning with them, most lacked capacity. These children will have a life of care, it wasn't even a case of their parents couldn't cope, they were deemed unsafe to be managed in anything other than a secure facility.

When you have a child with a disability, you might have a child with a few additional needs, but with a bit of support, therapy, etc they go on to leave fulfilling lives.

Or you might have a child that with such severe needs, that as a mum you have to give up work, any career aspirations out of the window, you have to give up social events, perhaps the dreams of having another child. You have to accept that your life will be 24/7 care. When the child gets older, most parents are able to relax, get their time back. But, no, this will be your role till you physically can't manage any longer, then you enter old age with the fear of how your child will be looked after when you are gone.

I once visited a home of an elderly couple in their 80s, who were continously slapped and kicked by their severely disabled 60 year old son. The only time they ever in their life they got any break from care was when he went to a day centre 3 afternoons a week. They occasionally had to physically restrain their 60 year old son as he would hit himself.

If you have a disabled child, you can potentially have a great life with a few extra challenges but still a great life. Or you can have something that I just described above. A woman should be able to chose whether or not she is capable of potentially giving up the rest of her life to be a carer, it really isn't a flippant decision.

This isn't an argument of whether the disabled child's life is less valuable, of course it isn't. It's a case of whether a woman feels able to meet the childs/adults needs in worse case scenario. And she should not be shamed for not being able.

Very thoughtful post.

All women should have the choice.

As early as possible, as late as necessary.