To draw your attention to this U.K. abortion law court case?

[Wouldloveanother]

Evening ladies
in light of Roe v Wade, it seems more important than ever that we are vigilant about abortion rights here in Britain.
there is an upcoming case at the Court of Appeal which seeks to repeal section 1(1)(d) of the Abortion Act 1967. Which permits later terminations for fetal abnormalities.
the hearing is on 13th July (next month).
very few posters seemed to be aware of it, so thought I would open it here for anyone who wishes to discuss.
thanks

Although I'm pro choice, I'm uncomfortable with blanket late abortions on abnormality or disability grounds. Not from the removal of choice from the woman, more from the point of view of people with disabilities. Do we count them as lesser beings from foetus to the grave or are we only going to count them as people once born?

Yes, some conditions are absolutely hideous and no one should suffer them but it's got to be a controlled, informed decision not a blanket one.

Given the ever lowering time scale for viability, it's an increasingly difficult question as at what point does that child/foetus/embryo have it's own rights?

This is another thing I hear a lot. What is an ‘informed’ decision? Why are we assuming women aren’t bright enough to do their own research and think things through?

Yes, some conditions are absolutely hideous and no one should suffer them but it's got to be a controlled, informed decision not a blanket one.

We achieve this by allowing women to make the decision in collaboration with their medical team. We achieve this by trusting women not to act frivolously and have late abortions for absolutely no reason - because they won't.

Given the ever lowering time scale for viability
Viability hasn't changed for coming up 30 years. This is a forced birther argument. It sits between 22 and 24 weeks, with babies born at the lower end likely to have extremely severe disabilities.

at what point does that child/foetus/embryo have it's own rights?
Simple. At birth. Anything else risks the kind of thing already happening in countries like El Salvador, where women are being imprisoned for 30 years for having a miscarriage.

This is another thing I hear a lot. What is an ‘informed’ decision? Why are we assuming women aren’t bright enough to do their own research and think things through?

an informed decision is one where a specialist medical team give the parents all the information, making them aware of all the risks and benefits.

guided by years of experience with positive and negative outcomes, latest research, collaboration with colleagues.

so they can make the decision that is best for them and their child.

you seriously think we should stop medical teams making sure parents know exactly what they are facing, because they “can do their own research”?

it’s not about assuming women aren’t bright enough. It’s the fact that no amount of googling can match up to years of medical school and post graduate specialisation. That’s even if a) lay person has access to the texts and peer reviewed journals, b) they can understand and interpret the medical data, and c) can extrapolate how that affects their specific circumstance.

”do your own research”. I am getting to hate that fucking phrase.

And as much as I hate to say it, most people aren’t bright enough to do their own research and reach an appropriate conclusion. This is why we have the covid deniers and antivaxxers. They all did their own research.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience Agatha.

people are so quick to condemn hcp and while you do get the odd arse on the whole I have found them to be overwhelming the best people on the planet.

everyone always tells me I’m strong, but I couldn’t turn up for work everyday in most nhs roles.

thanks for what you do

But medical staff (unless they have disabled children) aren’t able to provide first hand perspectives are they?

And thank you for sharing. This is the narrative people need to hear and understand, I hope your heart rending message touches the hearts that need it most.

im so sorry for your losses

But medical staff (unless they have disabled children) aren’t able to provide first hand perspectives are they?

what, medical staff who have treated these disabilities for years, will know all the likely medical issues, survivability, level of intervention needed in any particular condition, the level of care likely needed over their lives, how long that life may be, and the quality of that life…

you really think a newly diagnosed parent will have a better first hand perspective? Unless they already have a child with that exact condition then why on earth would pregnancy and google give them a better perspective than people with a career’s worth of experience?

@ThreeLightbulbsGone
i am so so sorry.

a decision born from love. I’m so sorry, thank you for sharing your story, it certainly brings home how important it is to keep the choice there

It’s not about having been in the same position.

it’s about having seen the realities long term, it’s about knowing the treatment options and side affects.

the team that diagnosed my daughter are the same team dealing with her 10yrs later.

they knew much better than I what life she was in for and in our case we were lucky that her disability was much less than it could have been.

almost all the other children we see on the ward have Catholic parents. Some of their children have incredibly painful, short lives and I know some of them privately regret not aborting. I can’t imagine how would destroying that must be.

I agree I was pointing out what the lobby behind the court case say

soul destroying

For the record if I had truly understood the risks of what the HCPs were trying to warn me about at the time I probably would have chosen to terminate.

i was 6.5mo and not really willing to hear their warnings. she was a much wanted baby and my desire to protect her overrode my ability to hear their warnings.

fortunately for my dd she fell down the much less affected end of the spectrum but she still has had to live with being doubly incontinent, 7 years and counting of daily anti biotics, perpetual head aches, 3 rounds of surgery so far and being lined up for amputation in the near future.
she does walk with some difficulty but probably won’t as an adult.
she luckily has normal brain function and is smart, funny and a joy to be with.

Having met kids (like the hcps had) much worse affected if I was back in that place I wouldn’t have taken the risk, I’m glad I did and I love her to the end of the world but I live in fear of the nhs collapsing and her dying for lack of me being able to afford the catheters and anti biotics that keep her alive

Part of the informed decision process involves those of you who feel uncomfortable with women being allowed late termination on disability grounds engaging with what would actually happen to those babies if we decided to force their mothers to give birth to them. What do you think the outcome would be of bringing a cohort of severely disabled babies into the world without anyone who wants care for them?

Although I'm pro choice, I'm uncomfortable with blanket late abortions on abnormality or disability grounds

this is where the “medical reasons” comes in. The parents, together with the medical staff make sure they are informed as to the quality of life their child will have. It’s case by case, and up to the parents to decide whether they want to bring a child into this world who will suffer, either physical pain or through inability to adequately meet their additional needs.

it isn’t as blanket as this child isn’t perfect, do you want to terminate. It’s a long drawn out process so the parents can be absolutely sure. Which is why we need no time limits, it’s not a decision which should be rushed.

It is a bit 🤨’indulgent’ for people to be ‘uncomfortable’ about a heart wrenching decision somebody else has to make, which will result in the loss of a much wanted pregnancy or a lifetime of caring responsibilities.

Some very powerful stories on here. So much love to everyone.

Here is something that no one talks about… when this discussion come up, T21 (Down Syndrome) is usually the most debated/discussed.

The thing is… in the department I work in, T21 is your best case scenario. I don’t mean that flippantly. I used to think T21 was a real tragedy (& for some families it is) but honestly, it’s a cake walk compared to what’s possible.

You would not believe the way human body parts and chromosomes can arrange themselves. Truly. Choice is essential. Some things defy belief.

You would not believe the way human body parts and chromosomes can arrange themselves. Truly. Choice is essential. Some things defy belief

i did a semester of embryology at uni. It is such a complicated and finely balanced process, it’s amazing how often it goes right. It goes wrong way more often than you’d think, and yes, one wrong step in the process and the result can be stuff of nightmares.

Exactly. Uncomfortable is not a patch on how it makes the people not idly discussing the theory feel.

maybe anti-abortionists could spend a few springs doing the lambing on a big farm and get an idea of all the things that can go wrong with gestation.

we are so spoiled by our fantastic healthcare system we have forgotten the grim realities of nature.
We now expect mother and baby to survive birth and bounce home when the truth is every time that happens it’s a bloody miracle!

To say the least.

I also don't give a flying fuck about people feeling 'uncomfortable' about late TFMR. Those people aren't the ones going through it. One of my friends was.

I am a member of a lot of groups/forums for people with disabilities and there are a lot of parents of children with disabilities in those groups too.

I see and read some HORRIFIC stuff - for the parents themselves and for the children.

It isn't just that parents will find raising a disabled child a MASSIVE struggle...

There are parents who really SHOULDN'T be raising any child but particularly a disabled one.

People who will not work hard to offer their child any independence..

Real life examples - giving up teaching Makaton to a deaf, non-verbal child who showed excellent use of it (but not quite enough motor skills for full BSL) because it takes too much time and 'anyway she doesn't know what she's asking for sometimes'...

Same child - tried out a manual wheelchair when she outgrew the pushchair style one. Got on great with it, videos of her laughing and whizzing along and being curious about her environment (compared to videos in her previous chair, just lying there flapping and doing not a lot, which the parent described as her being 'happy and interested'!)...

Declined chair because.. it takes up more room in the house (how, it was smaller!) and 'she goes too fast for me, I can't keep up'.

In reality... the kid was showing too much independence and the parent didn't like losing control over her in any way.

These are the sorts of ignorant decisions made by parents who would be 'poor' parents to an able bodied child, who are severely limiting the quality of life of a seriously disabled child and no one will ever call them out on it or step in and change things because 'its really hard and they're doing their best'.

As much as raising a disabled child has some romantic ideas around it... there is also a wildly inaccurate idea that ALL parents of disabled children will be confident, able to educate, able to understand their child, learn new things to improve their childs life, know when to push and when to stand back etc etc.

That isn't the case. There are many disabled children out there who are FURTHER disabled by their awful parents.

Of course some of them would never have dreamed of TFMR but some of them would have, if it were more honestly spoken about and less shoved under the rug as some shameful thing.

And no i dont want to eradicate disabled people, id be eradicating myself - but it is NOT all swimming with dolphins and incredible bucket list adventures (and if a disable child lives to adulthood, all that lovely freebies and charity shiz and attention goes away anyway, no one gives a crap about disabled ADULTS, they're not cute.)

@ThreeLightbulbsGone

Thank you for sharing, I found that hard to read so how you managed to write it I'm not sure.

Stories like yours need to be better known.💐

Exactly. People make it about themselves and their feelings on it, when it reality it has fuck all to do with them and won't affect their life. People need to keep their opinions and feelings out of other peoples choices and bodily autonomy.