To draw your attention to this U.K. abortion law court case?

[Wouldloveanother]

Evening ladies
in light of Roe v Wade, it seems more important than ever that we are vigilant about abortion rights here in Britain.
there is an upcoming case at the Court of Appeal which seeks to repeal section 1(1)(d) of the Abortion Act 1967. Which permits later terminations for fetal abnormalities.
the hearing is on 13th July (next month).
very few posters seemed to be aware of it, so thought I would open it here for anyone who wishes to discuss.
thanks

*we do NOT have the resources that should say!

The person I know who had a late TOP for medical reasons had a diagnosis of cleft palate. They watched and had further tests as the pregnancy progressed. She took the heartbreaking decision to abort when it became apparent that if her baby survived to term and was delivered safely he would have a short life in pain requiring significant medical intervention. He had zero chance of a "normal" life.

This was her last chance to have a baby, she had lost a child before and had an older girl. This baby was desparately wanted and his loss was a tragedy. The family and others like them should not have been forced to prolong their suffering or to put the mother's life at risk.

We must protect the rights of women in these tragic circumstances.

Are you going to look after all of these babies then?!

@JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon it sounds like the initial diagnosis was cleft lip and palate. Cleft palates is actually quite difficult to see on the scans, cleft lip is much easier.

But it sounds like other abnormalities were observed as the pregnancy progressed that lead to the conclusion it wasn’t viable, which is a higher risk if a cleft is identified, but very much not the most likely outcome.

An isolated cleft lip and palate with no other issues identified is very much compatible with life.

So really the cleft issue is a way to get through the legislation. A ‘code’ to put on a form.

I don’t think her doctors/she should have had to justify it in that way. And the other end I feel like it contributes to stigma/fear of cleft diagnoses.

From Tommy's website

This is specifically about what counts as an abnormality to exceed the 24 week limit. Read Sally Phillips information on this. This is not the same as a condition that is not compatible with life. 24 weeks is a good limit as it's where early delivery becomes possible (just)

Conditions don’t have to be immediately or inevitably fatal, to be desperately impactful on the quality and length of the life of the affected baby if they were born, and that same severity of course is also going to hugely impact on the woman, couple, wider family, the baby’s other siblings in different ways, according to the resources they have available.

For me a known disability would not necessarily have to be incompatible with life for me not to want to continue a pregnancy. That’s because I know what I would and would not want to cope with, I get that when you have a baby there are unknowns and you can’t guarantee a healthy child with no issues but for issues I do have the capacity to know about it should be my choice about whether I’m willing to accept that because it is MY life that will be most impacted by a disabled child.

How many marriages break down when a disabled child is brought into the mix. Of those I reckon a high percentage end with the mother being left metaphorically holding the baby while the father gets to pick and choose how much of the hard work they take on if any at all.

Fuck anyone who wants to take that choice away from me.

Tiag not once have I said a post 24 week fetus does not have the capacity to feel pain. I am pro-science and anti-scaremongering so that’s why I posted about anaesthesia in your ‘death row’ assertions that the fetus feels pain.

They sent the survey to 5000 people and only 284 responded. That's a tiny proportion. It's likely to have been extremely biased towards the upper end of the ability range.

And if the mother really feels she cannot cope with a child with DS then there is always the option to surrender the child to foster care and adoption.

Yes, we famously do a fantastic job for looked after children in this country and there's a huge surplus of prospective parents willing and able to take on children with significant extra needs. No fucking problemo, all solved with an airy wave of the hand.

IMO abortion after 24 weeks (when life is viable) is wrong. I would carry a baby with no possible chance of life, outside the womb, to term.

@crossstitchingnana cool, you do you. Don’t take my choice away from me though.

@crossstitchingnana
Well aren't you amazing.
Whilst back in the real world some of us have had to make agonising decisions about whether to continue the pregnancy or not.
Some people will never get it so i don't even know why i comment on these posts because it just makes me angry about how perfect some people are and those of us who have made these difficult decisions are made out to be heartless monsters.

IMO abortion after 24 weeks (when life is viable) is wrong. I would carry a baby with no possible chance of life, outside the womb, to term

and if doing that threatened your own life? Or your ability to have any further children?

the only circumstance I would do this in, would be if the baby’s organs could be donated- for example anencephaly. If the child has no chance of life, i would rather it died peaceful and warm in utero, surrounded by all it has ever known, than be dragged into this world of pain to be stuck with needles and poked and prodded until it expired.

It's always very easy to make these kinds of decisions when it's purely hypothetical.

@Tiag An injection is not considered painful enough to need anaesthesia. That's why anaesthesia isn't given to foetuses being terminated. Babies are given vitamin k injections as soon as they are born, no anaesthesia there either. They do scream so it does hurt but it's quick and not that bad. Anyway there's no doubt that surgery for cleft lip or club foot is painful so it's odd that you are so concerned about the pain caused by one injection to a foetus.

Cardiac arrest is not painful. And an injection is considered only mildly painful. Being born is probably far more painful

I agree, however if the baby has a condition not compatible with life. I cannot see how it is less cruel to slowly watch it die for a couple of hours rather than just terminating in the womb without pain or suffering.

Out of interest, have you had any babies or ever been pregnant? Or cared for a disabled child or adult in any capacity?

That’s good that you feel that way. Your choice shouldn’t take away the choice of other women who wouldn’t want to do that, or couldn’t cope with that.

Perhaps I phrased my post insensitively. What I meant was, yes hypothetically, I don't think I could terminate once past 24 weeks. Yes, I have two children thankfully healthy.

I understand right to choose but to me it feels so wrong to abort past the time when a baby could live outside the womb. I hope abortions past 24 weeks are done humanely is all I will say.

Pearl S Buck can do one. It is up to the woman, and only the woman, to decide whether or not she is willing and able to dedicate her life to a child with DS. People romanticise DS so much, but it occurs on a spectrum. The incidence of very young onset dementia in people with DS sits at well above 60%. Having seen two parents succumb to dementia I would not wish that on anyone - not on the person themselves, not on the parents who care for them. Nobody gets to take that decision but the woman who is pregnant with that child. The law must not change.

Yes because people are absolutely beating adoption agencies doors down to adopt kids with disabilities, particularly to adopt children who may NEVER live independently.

I come to this as a disabled person - the 'i've got xy and z and if id been aborted i wouldn't be here now' whataboutery is pointless. You weren't, and you are, that argument has no legs.

Lets look at the other side - the parent who has absolutely no ability or desire even, to raise and care for a severely disabled child.

I firmly believe that not wanting to raise a child right now (not even ever, just right now) is a good enough reason for abortion. No child should be raised by someone who doesn't want them.

In what way is increasing the risk of a disabled child being born to a parent who does not want to (or cannot) deal with that, a good idea?

And putting them into care in the hopes that some lovely folk will want to adopt them.. yes thats like all those people who rehome their bitey miserable mangey one legged dog and tell themselves they will go and live on a farm and skip about catching butterflies in sunny fields in a perpetual glorious summer.

Not fucking happening.

Forcing people to birth children they don't want, particularly disabled children, is abhorrent and the care system is shit, its shit for perfect bonny bouncing babies. For the wobbly dribbly fucked up ones... its HELL. A living hell.

Being disabled is, once you get past all the inspiration porn, shit. I don't wish I was dead, I have a good life but its a good life tempered by SHIT, day in, day out, endless shit.

I would not wish that on a child, particularly one who has not got fabulous, supportive, robust, parents.