To draw your attention to this U.K. abortion law court case?

[Wouldloveanother]

Evening ladies
in light of Roe v Wade, it seems more important than ever that we are vigilant about abortion rights here in Britain.
there is an upcoming case at the Court of Appeal which seeks to repeal section 1(1)(d) of the Abortion Act 1967. Which permits later terminations for fetal abnormalities.
the hearing is on 13th July (next month).
very few posters seemed to be aware of it, so thought I would open it here for anyone who wishes to discuss.
thanks

@SnackSizeRaisin www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3740159/

Brian Skotko who led the study is pretty much THE leading academic on DS. He’s a paediatrician researching out of Harvard.

Why would only a tiny minority of people with DS be able to complete a survey?? These days people with DS have access to education so the majority can read and write.

The problem with any debate on abortion is that it almost always lacks nuance or an acknowledgement that it is an ethical issue. You are balancing the rights of the mother, the fetus and the father and I don't think it's right to place a blanket negation on any of those rights. Taken to extreme, both pro choice and pro life positions are problematic. It's just as bad to argue a viable foeWe need legal, free abortion but I don't support it being unrestricted and I'm hugely uncomfortable with late abortions and abortions on grounds of disability so I have

My phone was against me then. That should say it's just as bad to argue a viable foetus that could survive if born should be aborted as it is to force a woman to die rather than end a pregnancy that's killing her. I'm neither pro life nor pro choice, I'm pro accepting this is a difficult debate and while abortion should be free and legal it shouldn't be unrestricted. Abort

@Rinatinabina sure. Although I think “numerous” is probably overstating it - there are a fair few health conditions that people with DS are more likely to have but any individual is unlikely to have all if even many of them. Plus they’re less likely to get e.g. solid tissue cancers. Plus as a for instance, men are significantly more likely to have heart failure than women - we don’t point to this and say aha! They must have a poor quality of life.

It was a self reported study - presumably they know the degree to which any health conditions impact them and it hasn’t affected their answers. Quality of life is generally self reported, not done on diagnoses.

All you anti abortionists (and that's what you are, even if you tell yourself you're not) - can you tell me what's going to happen to these (likely) profoundly disabled babies that the parents don't want?

Have you ever spent any time on the special needs boards here?

What's your experience of securing adequate care and support for disabled children and their families?

And your experience and knowledge of the care system

What does a very late abortion involve? If the foetus is at a stage where it would/might survive an early labour, what has to happen to make sure it doesn't?

Medical decisions for such small numbers of late term cases will all be different because there are so many different conditions and comorbidities with huge variations in severity and potential impact. Pregnant woman deserve to be treated as individuals and to make decisions with their doctors based on the nuances of the foetus's conditions, their conditions and their particular circumstances. Any law that will remove medical choice unnecessarily is badly written.

Trust women and their doctors to make decisions that work for them. As early as possible and as late as necessary.

The difference is that one concerns a foetus inside a woman, whereas in the other one concerns a baby not inside of anyone.

@Throckmorton if that's all it was about, all abortions would be permitted til birth. It's clearly not just about that, there is some thought given to the fetus, evidently. They're asking a valid question about non- life threatening, less severe disabilities.

I'm curious to find out, because I've never thought about the severity of disability affecting whether TFMR is allowed.

What about the parents quality of life? I mentioned earlier that my aunt chose to continue her pregnancy. My 17 year old cousin is happy with her life but is oblivious to the challenges. My aunt and uncle love her to bits and don't regret their decision but they've had some very long frustrating battles with the local authority for support, particularly around her education. They went into it willingly, knowing they had the finances and support network to cope. What about the parents who don't?

can I just ask, at what point is a fetid considered ACTUALLY viable.
yes I know that at 24 weeks they can survive once born, but that’s not without a huge amount of medical intervention and life support and it’s still touch and go. I believe there are even cases as low as 22?
But - at what point is a Cetus viable WITHOUT this huge amount of medical intervention?

Oh my goodness I should have proof read - obviously my phone doesn’t like the word ‘fetus’!!!!

Disgusting things being said on here when you have a Tfmr your baby is not dismembered you see a professor or someone senior in the fetal meficine unit who scans you and injects the baby into the heart with a drug that stops the heart and the you deliver your baby.
I gave birth and held my son and got to say goodbye.
Some of you are really vile.

There are not huge queues of women lining up to end second or third trimester pregnancies for shits and giggles.

I think few people think that, it's more to do with that it's unethical towards the fetus so late. Even if the woman was melancholy, they still wouldn't agree with it.

Every single word of this. Late stage abortions are incredibly rare, tightly regulated by law, and they don’t happen because the mother decides she wants to go to Ibiza (that would in fact be illegal). And the idea that they do is one of the cruelest fictions the anti-abortion lobby has come up with.

The only thing women who find themselves in that awful position deserve is empathy and kindness. Not arbitrary time limits and being called ‘murderers’.

I have a friend who had a late stage abortion of a much wanted pregnancy for medical reasons. The abnormality was suspected at her 20 week scan, which actually took place at nearly 22 weeks. The hospital wanted to wait a week and scan again. Then she was referred to a fetal medicine consultant - that took two weeks. He wanted the opinion of another fetal medicine consultant, who confirmed what the first one had said. That took another week. She ended up having the procedure at 27 weeks after all doctors had confirmed her baby had no chance of survival.

And some people on here would have liked to make that experience even more agonising for her by putting an arbitrary time limit on her decision.

There's enough suffering in the world as it is without forcing women to give birth to a poor little baby who stands no chance of life outside the womb. As I've said on numerous threads I'm pro life but not to the extent we should be birthing poor defenceless babies who will only suffer and die shortly after birth. Where is the humanity in that?

This is so true.

The support we offer families caring for a severly dependent child is inconsistent, patchy and just poorly funded. Even if it was well funded, the care system is falling to pieces so much so that actually finding carers to employ and retain is so so difficult. Retention is a huge factor - imagen having a steady flow of people you don't really know in your home constantly and them changing every 5 mins.

There's frequent talk of the care system for our elderly people in society and how that's not working but I rarely see anyone willing to discuss our families with disabled children and how it is or isn't working for them

Melancholy?!

I don’t think the word ‘melancholy’ describes the utter devastation and agonising pain of women in that position.

There but for the grace of God.

@JLwac
Do not listen to some of the peoples views on herr they have no idea what we have been through and frankly they do not give a damn.
You made a decision that was best for you and your family never feel guilty about that.
Sorry for your loss

👏

@FunDragon oh great, so you've picked up on my use of word. Calm down, I'm on your side. Sorry I'm not an English professor.

Banning safe and legal abortions doesn’t stop abortions or babies being dumped once born.

you see countries with huge issues with babies just being left on the streets and in baby boxes, some countries with children’s homes just full of disabled babies and children. That’s what happens when women are not allowed to make their own choices about the babies within their bodies.

As early or late as required. Her body her choice. She’s not just an incubator.

I know of someone who had a termination at 36wks due to an abnormally found during a late scan to check the placenta. They all agreed the condition was incompatible with life. I guess it’s a huge decision, terminate when in the womb and no pain and suffering for the child, or give birth and watch the child die. Neither is a good option, and I guess that the parents made the choice they did with the absolutely believe of believing they were saving their child from any pain and suffering. I could never begin to judge that, what’s right or wrong as I can’t imagine being in that situation. It absolutely broke them. Heartbreaking

Heartbreaking but entirely humane and rational as would any decision to abort after circa 24 weeks and certainly that late, no matter what the forced birthers would have us believe.