To draw your attention to this U.K. abortion law court case?

[Wouldloveanother]

Evening ladies
in light of Roe v Wade, it seems more important than ever that we are vigilant about abortion rights here in Britain.
there is an upcoming case at the Court of Appeal which seeks to repeal section 1(1)(d) of the Abortion Act 1967. Which permits later terminations for fetal abnormalities.
the hearing is on 13th July (next month).
very few posters seemed to be aware of it, so thought I would open it here for anyone who wishes to discuss.
thanks

Personally I don't think abortion for non fatal conditions such as Down syndrome should be allowed beyond 24 weeks. If they have further complications beyond the DS that make it a fatal condition or if it puts the mothers life at risk then that's different. I do think abortion for severe / fatal conditions should be allowed to term. But Down syndrome doesn't fall into that category.
As for woman's rights and womens right to choose I'm sorry but she has had time to make decisions about the pregnancy. If she didn't want to be pregnant then she could have aborted sooner. She doesn't have the right to abort a healthy baby post 24 weeks so would have to continue the pregnancy regardless the same should apply to non fatal conditions.

And if the mother really feels she cannot cope with a child with DS then there is always the option to surrender the child to foster care and adoption.

Well according to Poland's de facto ruler, at least the baby gets to be baptized.

I know someone who had a termination at 32 weeks for a condition incompatible with life too. It was such a hard decision. I don’t think the decision to terminate late in pregnancy is ever easy it should be up to the woman with the support of her medical team.

I personally think that if you are carrying a severely disabled baby and you are considering termination you should have to make this choice by 25 weeks

my 20 week scan didn’t happen until 23 weeks. Had to go back two weeks later for another scan. Had another and a meeting with a consultant the following week. Saw a specialist the week after that. Appointments for medical termination, which I should have had but didn’t (and regret because my beautiful DD has absolutely fuck all quality of life) was 2-3 weeks.

how do people make choices by 25 weeks when that, from all the other parents I know in similar circumstances, is pretty par for the course for finding sone serious problems?

What Jott said, exactly right:
Heidi's mother had a choice when she was pregnant. Sally Whatsherface had a choice when she was pregnant with her son. It is sickening that they now seek to remove that right of choice from other women.

For me, I find the inclusion of clefts in this really challenging.

Both my mother and daughter have cleft lips and palates. They are both thriving members of society! A few operations and a bit of speech therapy to lead productive successful lives doesn’t seem like a huge amount to me. DD is hugely proud of her cleft, how it makes her special and how much she has learnt from having one.

Yes, there is an increased risk of other defects if a cleft is found but you can start by looking for those defects alongside the cleft. It isn’t the most likely outcome.

Over the years I have meant plenty of professionals - doctors, policeman, economists, actuaries etc with clefts. It makes me sad to think of a world where people like this could be gone due to this issue..

But ultimately I support a woman’s right to make the right decision for them. That includes removing a foetus/baby from their body at any point. For me, if the baby can survive outside the womb it should be given that opportunity.

And given that, I accept that some people will make decisions that might make me sad or that I would never make including removing a post 24 week foetus for a cleft but women having that choice is more important.

Not bollocks.

Sadly.

My friend gave birth to her daughter with Down Syndrome in 2020 and this was her experience. She has been very vocal about her experience. It's shocking.

Abortion for fatal abnormalities is legal to term currently. I was almost pressured into one at 31 weeks as a fatal abnormality wasn’t picked up despite normal antenatal care and even an amniocentesis at 21 weeks, which we were told was clear, due to a relatively minor issue cropping up at the 20 week scan. I couldn’t do it and went into premature labour a week later after a sweep.

The abnormality my DD had doesn’t normally present until late pregnancy but is thankfully extremely rare. I was told ours was only the 7th case in the UK in the last 50 years and I can’t find a report of one since. That was 21 years ago.

I too don’t agree with DS being in the same category. Many DS people have a decent quality of life and live to middle age at least. There are plenty of other disabilities which can’t be picked through ante natal testing where children and adults have much more limited quality and quantity of life.

Abortion should be as early as possible & as late as necessary. Anyone who is wanting TFMRbanning should have to bring up these babies that are born with disabilities. It isn't only the life of the child, it is the life of the parents & any siblings as well. With cuts to social care, SEN places in schools & the NHS the support that parents bringing up a disabled child get is terrible. Bringing up a severely disabled child isn't like a NT child, no letting them have their freedom at 18, no leaving home, meeting a partner or getting married, it is a life sentence.

From a different perspective possibly, my first daughter was born at 37 weeks, deemed at term.
Reduced movements - there had been a blood clot in the umbilical cord.
She had been starved of oxygen.
At the hospital, she made a small kick and had a faint heartbeat so she was delivered by EMCS under general anaesthetic.
She died at 2 days old when we had to make the heartbreaking decision to turn her life support off as she just would not have survived.
How is that horrific decision that we had to make different from any other woman who has to come to terms with their baby being born incompatible with life?

I strongly support the rights of women to be able to make their own decisions about their own bodies.

Heidi Crowter says it makes her 'feel sad', I've seen her interviewed and she is always treated with kid gloves.

I wish a journalist would have the guts to actually question her and see if she has any understanding of the issues.

Hi OP I think the topic is complex I have read the link you have posted. My thoughts on it are was it not highly likely that Heidi the woman in the case was going to have a Downs child considering she is downs herself?

Perhaps someone did give her stern advice about an abortion later on buy perhaps this wasn't picked up till later? Again the article is misleading because like my first question above. If you have a medical condition yourself which could then be hereditary to your baby I think it's only fair the medical profession is Frank with you. From Heidi's POV I can completely understand how she feels Downs people don't have equal rights but I think Downs personally is quite severe.

People who I have met with Downs are not living independently once they have reached adulthood and they tend to have other medical issues on top of too.

I think a general abortion at 24 weeks in UK is very late. However reading through various comments the one that stuck out the most is its not ne having the termination!

I am the oft posited hard-line abortion woman.

I honestly think there should be no real arbitrary discussion.

It's quite simple. Either women have volition over their bodies and until an other person exits their body that potential life does not exist or women are carriers of others and have no say on anything because their body has the potential to forment life.

I which case, you may as well forget about women entirely and just see them as a biological process that pumps out men.

I don't think there should be a limit at all.

My thoughts on it are was it not highly likely that Heidi the woman in the case was going to have a Downs child considering she is downs herself?

I think her husband has Downs too, most men with Down's are infertile and most women with Down's are supertile.

So it is not likely Heidi will ever be a mother. I don't know if she knows this.

Young women like Heidi are generally not bringing the cases themselves. They are being used as a tool by pro-life groups.

And it's very difficult to say to Heidi that she shouldn't exist. But it's just emotive pressure.

I've had abortions. Those people don't exist.

They didn't, as far as I know, have any birth or chromosomal defects.

Either abortion is acceptable, for whatever reason. There doesn't have to be a reason.

Or it's not.

Surely that makes Heidi more valuable. No-one was forced to have her.

Her mother wanted to.

If people want the limit moved sooner, then there needs to be improvement in services so all women have all the information they need as early as possible so they can make an informed decision as early as possible. Not getting the information a day before the time limit etc

I am against time limits purely because I think women should have time to decide, not be rushed

I would be interested to see any detailed statistics showing when these late abortions are performed.... I have a feeling more will be around the 25/26 week mark than 30+ weeks.

The problem with lowering the limit on the basis that services improve for women, no service is foolproof, some conditions don't show up until later in pregnancy or a woman just needs time to make that decision. No one should rushed for arbitrary time limits.

Let's not kid ourselves, there simply isn't +++ women trying to terminate much wanted pregnancies as they go into labour. This is a smoke screen by the anti choice lobby.

And if we start to make concessions like lowering the limit, for "better service", they won't stop there.

People need to keep their opinions out of women's wombs.

@TreeOfPain thats pretty offensive really. She has a learning disability - she can still have opinions and independent thought. You can think she’s wrong (I do) without going “well she’s got Down syndrome so she must be a puppet”.

See also “she must be unusually high functioning”, “most people with DS aren’t like her”, “my cousin’s neighbour had Downs and he was incontinent therefore she’s talking rubbish” - just to preempt all the ableist nonsense that will be spouted on this thread by people who know very little about Down syndrome.

She’s wrong. But address the arguments rather than making assumptions due to her learning disabilities.

I re read the story again my mistake.. it was the other woman that said that she had a 2 year old!

I mean you don't want to be rude or offensive but Heidi saying or thinking a person with Downs is going to have the same quality of life to someone without downs is being very positive to say the least...

I mean people have a right to be blunt because if this continues and falls in the wrong hands... who knows what could be over turned? You can't come in the media with such claims like this without full understanding it's dangerous.

@IfIhearmumagaintoday there was a big study in the US a few years ago that found 99% of people with DS felt happy with their lives.

It’s not a condition that tends to lead to a poor quality of life.

Terminating the pregnancy at 39 weeks prevents suffering for the baby. Once a baby is born it will start having lots of invasive medical procedures
It also gives the mother a choice. Not everyone wants a child with severe disabilities. And since the mother is the one who has to deal with the reality of caring for that child, to the detriment of her own life , her relationship, her career, freedom etc, it's no one else's business really.

I would question this. Who did the survey? Was it a random selection of people with downs syndrome or just those with enough understanding to complete a survey (a tiny minority). I suspect that this would have been highly biased and done by a group with an agenda

I thought people with downs syndrome often have numerous co-morbidities including a very high incidence of Alzheimer’s.