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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do the general public know how bad the conditions in the NHS are?

648 replies

Gakatsbsk · 28/06/2022 20:09

Hello

Expecting to be roasted.

However, I’m an NHS staff nurse. Qualified almost 2 years. I’ve worked through the pandemic. I initially worked in England and now work in a different UK nation - which is better but only because England was so poor.

My union is about to start a consultative ballot for industrial action in light of the nhs pay offer. I have had two family ‘acquaintances’ (who do not work or have immediate family that work for the nhs) complain in one breath about delayed appointments, delayed A+E waiting times, cancelled surgeries etc but then in another tell me that nurses going on strike is disgusting, lucky to have a job, NHS more secure employment etc. These are of course English Tory voters who said this

For reference, I have never and will never cross a picket line and will be voting in favour of industrial action (whatever form that takes due to emergency cover staffing etc).

When I was a few weeks qualified as a nurse I was looking after double the safe ratio of patients in my speciality. Completely unsupported, me and my (equally junior) colleagues having to consult google for solutions to our patients problem, if a medical emergency occurred (in ICU there should always be medical cover - this isn’t the case) we had to pull a buzzer, put out a page and get on with it until a medic appeared. This has not improved post pandemic.

In my current workplace (same speciality area), different country we are the only part of the hospital that is safe staffed, because of this every single day nurses and HCAs are sent to general wards, A+E and different hospitals often to be the only RN on a ward for 30 patients. There is such a crisis of care home beds, and ward beds that patients are staying in critical Care for weeks waiting on a ward bed. On the wards patients aren’t able to be washed each day as there might only be 1-3 staff members for 30-40 patients, meds rounds take 4 hours and ultimately patients who are sick go unnoticed until they are peri arrest. Nurses from day shift often have to stay on to night shift as there is no night shift nurse available.

I have only had negatives from the general public - it’s our fault for having degrees and being too posh to wash, bring the matrons back, etc etc. our colleagues who trained in the 80s and 90s pre degree say it is the worst it has ever been for safety and staffing. Racism and xenophobia towards our brilliant overseas colleagues is rife when they keep the NHS clinging on by a shoestring.

Four and a half years ago I was a first year student nurse and times were hard for the NHS, it has only got worse and worse for my patients since then. For the sake of my patients I will take industrial action.

However, it is so concerning how anti union, anti public sector and pro Tory the English public seem to have become? The decisions and government of Westminster negatively affect every nhs patient and worker in the UK. Just look at the widespread abuse, disdain and disgust directed at the RMT workers recently. I fear the same or worse for NHS workers.

So, is this NHS worker wrong for not enjoying being told to be grateful to work for the NHS? Is there any future for the public sector of the UK?

I apologise if I seem to have generalised England but I am English and from a northern Tory heartland. An area completely brainwashed.

OP posts:
TruthHertz · 03/07/2022 18:59

RosesAndHellebores · 01/07/2022 16:19

Are you a Dr @Junepassing. In my experience it's Dr's who do the "hello Jane/Fred, I am Dr Soandso". When they do I usually extend my hand and say "I'm pleased to meet you, I didn't catch your first name" or "I'm pleased to meet you, actually I am Mrs Hellebores" Either version gets a muttered "oh er call me Paul" or an eyeroll. But the damage has been done, they have already made an assumption that the patient is the subordinate party and it is wrong. Similarly I have had a nurse call me Roses in front of a Dr they call Dr or Mr Jones. Does it not strike them that the patient is not and should never be subordinate to the Dr? It's not that I think I shoukd be called Mrs Hellebores, it's that I don't think another human should be afforded more courtesy than any other human.

I simply don't understand the patriarchal hierarchy. I call my solicitor and accountant their first names. Highly qualified people. Why are Dr's different? They are no more highly qualified and may well earn less. Ah, now let me see. I pay my solicitor and accountant directly and if they were as rude and/or patronising they wouldn't get paid would they.

Are you sure it's not actually because they want you to see them as a serious professional, given that your life may very well be in their hands?

"Fred ere's going to crack on and remove that clot from your brain" might be a bit less reassuring for some.

Tirednurse1 · 03/07/2022 19:02

I’ve lost the post of whoever @ me.

But 1) just because one profession has it poor doesn’t justify it being poor in the NHS and
2) the point about junior solicitors can be applied to the NHS - the majority of NHS workers are at bands 2-6 of the agenda for change and most will never be promoted much further

RosesAndHellebores · 03/07/2022 19:06

I also see my solicitor and accountant as serious professionals. They don't do it.

TruthHertz · 03/07/2022 19:06

Oh, I've just read some more of your posts, HellaBore. You seem to be the type that looks for sexism in every passing shadow. You'll fit in well here!

TruthHertz · 03/07/2022 19:09

RosesAndHellebores · 03/07/2022 19:06

I also see my solicitor and accountant as serious professionals. They don't do it.

Cocking up an expenses spreadsheet isn't on the same level as potentially cocking up an operation or diagnoses, though, is it really.

Tirednurse1 · 03/07/2022 19:13

This thread does seem to have derailed into a GP vs Lawyers thread and lots of whinging about titles.

Ultimately the goal of the Tories is the end of the public sector - they want the NHS to fail. They won’t be thinking of a Scandinavian model / European model - it’ll be a privatised model as per their free market principles. To them, Anyone who can’t afford healthcare can’t afford it due to their own stupidity / lack of work ethic and their voters lap this us. It’s disgusting.

Tirednurse1 · 03/07/2022 19:15

The people I will hold accountable when my patients die as they can’t afford healthcare will be the Tories and their voters stupid or selfish enough to support them.

sequin2000 · 03/07/2022 19:36

A cynic might think that the plan is to run the NHS into the ground. Then no-one will complain when privatisation is suggested as it wasn't worth saving anyway.

grannybiker · 03/07/2022 20:04

When I had an endoscopic procedure last week, my nurse was European. She told me that she and her countryfolk are so sad that UK workers don't want to work for their NHS :(

Windypants21 · 03/07/2022 22:29

sequin2000 · 03/07/2022 19:36

A cynic might think that the plan is to run the NHS into the ground. Then no-one will complain when privatisation is suggested as it wasn't worth saving anyway.

A cynic or a realist.

Windypants21 · 03/07/2022 22:46

Says it all

Do the general public know how bad the conditions in the NHS are?
Kennykenkencat · 04/07/2022 09:51

Windypants21 · 03/07/2022 22:29

A cynic or a realist.

“Plan” on running the NHS into the ground

Its been scraping the bottom for years (and not just under a Tory government. It didn’t fair any better under Labour.
It was under Labour that I was subjected to 7 years of agonising constant agony because they preferred guess work scans.

Kennykenkencat · 04/07/2022 10:11

Windypants21 · 03/07/2022 22:46

Says it all

Underfunded.

Pull the other one.

Look at where the money is being spent and I will show you an organisation who are so arrogant that they don’t listen to the very people who they are supposedly qualified to treat.
And cannot see that if you don’t treats a group of symptoms as a whole then you won’t get rid of the issue and leaving something an infection , cancer etc for any length of time just results in longer hospital stays and more expensive treatments

An organisation that will spend £300,000 over 7 years in order to save themselves £300 is not an organisation that needs money.
It needs people who can add up

Honeyroar · 04/07/2022 10:14

It’s frightening. My mum was seriously ill five and seven years ago, my husband was seriously ill four years ago, and my dad is seriously ill in hospital now (I know, what a useless bunch!). I’ve noticed a scary decline each time they’ve been in hospital (all have been in a couple of weeks, my husband ten). A lot of it seems to be down to targets, I don’t know if they’re from the government or this hospital. For example yesterday they came to get my dad out of bed and put him in his chair. Prior to this he’d had rails up at his bed. I asked if they were sure, as he’s still pretty poorly. They said yes he needed to get moving a bit. While halfway up he soiled himself (no bowel or leg control). While they were cleaning him I asked what NIB meant on his chart. “Oh, oh said the nurses, he’s “nurse in bed”, perhaps we’d better wait until the drs see him on Monday. They then put him to bed. A similar thing happened with my husband. A physio decided he needed to walk 3 days post surgery, despite him saying he was in agony. They stood him up. He tottered three steps then collapsed. He ended up having emergency surgery that night and was in intensive care for ten days afterwards, yet nobody in the ward had listened or noticed. Even now, with my dad, meals are plonked down by assistants, dad barely touches it and it’s taken away. It’s not recorded how much he’s had. If I’m not there for a meal the nurse says yes he’s eaten, but dad says he couldn’t manage it. I feel like unless I’m sitting next to my poorly relatives they aren’t getting well looked after. They’re just chasing targets. Twice my husband was sent home and we had to come back in an ambulance within 24 hours (once for sepsis, once for a DVT). It scares me.
Please don’t think this post is completely criticising nurses, I know they work really hard, I see that too.

LizzieSiddal · 04/07/2022 10:27

The people I will hold accountable when my patients die as they can’t afford healthcare will be the Tories and their voters stupid or selfish enough to support them.

Hear Hear, people moan and blame everyone apart form the fact they voted this goverment in. The Facts are the NHS always improves for the patients when we have a Labour government and it’s run into the ground with a Conservative one. Stop bloody voting for them!!

Louise0701 · 04/07/2022 11:26

@Tirednurse1 surely it’s your parents fault if they can’t afford something? Why so entitled.

justasking111 · 04/07/2022 11:34

LizzieSiddal · 04/07/2022 10:27

The people I will hold accountable when my patients die as they can’t afford healthcare will be the Tories and their voters stupid or selfish enough to support them.

Hear Hear, people moan and blame everyone apart form the fact they voted this goverment in. The Facts are the NHS always improves for the patients when we have a Labour government and it’s run into the ground with a Conservative one. Stop bloody voting for them!!

Well can someone explain the mess Scotland, Wales and Ireland are in. They're not Tory

ILoveAllRainbowsx · 04/07/2022 11:56

@justasking111

Very good point. From what I have read, things are even worse in Wales and Scotland.

ILoveAllRainbowsx · 04/07/2022 11:57

ILoveAllRainbowsx · 04/07/2022 11:56

@justasking111

Very good point. From what I have read, things are even worse in Wales and Scotland.

@LizzieSiddal

Sorry, I meant to tag you.

LuaDipa · 04/07/2022 13:42

Windypants21 · 03/07/2022 13:27

So on one hand you want to call a doctor by his first name, on another you want distance, on another you want to be called Mrs h , on another you object to 'terms of endearment' when being addressed. And that's before you get to your health issue.

From a personal viewpoint I intensely dislike 'love', but a good friend of mine refers to me that way so I take it as it is, a friendly endearment. One would assume any nurse using it is not ill intentioned. In order to identify you they would have to use your full name at any initial interaction at the very least. If someone responds to me I am Mrs so and so I take their lead and call them that or ask later is it ok i call you Marjorie....i personally dont use any of the terms you abhor but really at the end of the day unless you are not identified correctly it shouldn't matter. If you are so set on it just say I'm Mrs so and so and leave it at that. But you seem to be fixated on some sort of heirarchy being established. Some colleagues I find are pompous and full of their own self importance i ignore that bit and focus on whether it matches up with their competence in what they do. And this above ALL else is what should matter.

If your main complaints are just about what your are referred to, then maybe you need to be less focused on this and more on the greater issues at hand. Thinking about it most of the nurses I work with address people by Mr/Mrs initially but after establishing a relationship with them may refer to them by their first name. Most nurses are referred to as nurse or their first name, I dont think they really care. If i started stomping around insisting on being referred to as nurse windypants I'd be laughed out of the building and rightly so.

@Windypants21 I don’t really understand your fixation on this issue. Surely an absolute basic of patient care is to refer to someone in the manner that they choose to be referred. If a patient wants to be called Mrs X rather than their first name then surely that should be respected? It’s really not difficult.

Re the issue of nurses pay, of course they should earn more. I have issues with the way the NHS is run, and I’ve dealt with my fair share of crappy nurses over the years, but I’ve also met some amazing ones. The solution in my opinion is to improve rates of pay in order to attract better candidates. It’s a challenging role with a huge amount of responsibility and the pay should reflect that. I also agree that training should be free as these people are contributing to society by working in the NHS.

I do think that the piss poor, downright negligent nurses should be managed out far more effectively than they are now. I have seen dreadful treatment of patients and it should not be tolerated in any instance. I wholeheartedly agree that nurses are professionals so would query why exactly they are allowed to behave in a manner not befitting their role.

LuaDipa · 04/07/2022 13:55

Honeyroar · 04/07/2022 10:14

It’s frightening. My mum was seriously ill five and seven years ago, my husband was seriously ill four years ago, and my dad is seriously ill in hospital now (I know, what a useless bunch!). I’ve noticed a scary decline each time they’ve been in hospital (all have been in a couple of weeks, my husband ten). A lot of it seems to be down to targets, I don’t know if they’re from the government or this hospital. For example yesterday they came to get my dad out of bed and put him in his chair. Prior to this he’d had rails up at his bed. I asked if they were sure, as he’s still pretty poorly. They said yes he needed to get moving a bit. While halfway up he soiled himself (no bowel or leg control). While they were cleaning him I asked what NIB meant on his chart. “Oh, oh said the nurses, he’s “nurse in bed”, perhaps we’d better wait until the drs see him on Monday. They then put him to bed. A similar thing happened with my husband. A physio decided he needed to walk 3 days post surgery, despite him saying he was in agony. They stood him up. He tottered three steps then collapsed. He ended up having emergency surgery that night and was in intensive care for ten days afterwards, yet nobody in the ward had listened or noticed. Even now, with my dad, meals are plonked down by assistants, dad barely touches it and it’s taken away. It’s not recorded how much he’s had. If I’m not there for a meal the nurse says yes he’s eaten, but dad says he couldn’t manage it. I feel like unless I’m sitting next to my poorly relatives they aren’t getting well looked after. They’re just chasing targets. Twice my husband was sent home and we had to come back in an ambulance within 24 hours (once for sepsis, once for a DVT). It scares me.
Please don’t think this post is completely criticising nurses, I know they work really hard, I see that too.

I’m sorry to hear about your family, it must be very difficult.

I think there is a culture of neglect and indifference towards the elderly in hospital. We saw the same thing with my dgf 20 years ago. He couldn’t feed himself and when we saw him losing weight rapidly we asked if he was eating. We were either told that they didn’t have time to feed him as they were so busy or that he had eaten when it was clear that he hadn’t. There was only one nurse who showed any care towards him she was not from the UK and I will never forget her kindness.

In the end my dm insisted (against huge opposition from said nurses) that they be allowed onto the ward at mealtimes to spoon feed him. They agreed after she threatened legal action and going to the local rag with before and after pictures of him (an absolute last resort as my dgf would have been utterly mortified at the thought). We are a large family and all took our turn which I appreciate isn’t possible for everyone but it was the only way to ensure he was fed. I have met lots of good nurses since then but I have very little faith in the way we look after our elderly in this country.

Topgub · 04/07/2022 15:31

@LuaDipa

Which countries do you think are getting elderly care right?

How much would you pay to get the level of care you think is appropriate?

Topgub · 04/07/2022 15:38

The article posted a whole back on the French system was from 2013/2014

And even then they spent more. Had almost double the amount of hospitals beds. More gps, lots more nurses and even they were struggling with funding elderly care.

I cant imagine it's gotten any better or less expensive nearly 10 years later.

No one has really answered how they think we can fix things now.

AllTheDancers · 04/07/2022 15:48

Topgub · 04/07/2022 15:31

@LuaDipa

Which countries do you think are getting elderly care right?

How much would you pay to get the level of care you think is appropriate?

A lot of questions but what solutions do you suggest?

Simply asking loaded questions does not mean that there is no better way forward. Certainly users of mainstream European healthcare systems are consistently reporting that they are much more satisfied with them on here at least.

Topgub · 04/07/2022 15:53

@AllTheDancers

They do

But we can't get a European system today. Or even in the next 10 years.

It doesn't even make sense to me to completely overhaul a system we know can work when properly funded but lots of people seem opposed to the nhs on principle. I'm not sure I'd use mumsnet as a barometer for support for the nhs.

Lots of posters seem completely ignorant to the realities of healthcare

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