Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do the general public know how bad the conditions in the NHS are?

648 replies

Gakatsbsk · 28/06/2022 20:09

Hello

Expecting to be roasted.

However, I’m an NHS staff nurse. Qualified almost 2 years. I’ve worked through the pandemic. I initially worked in England and now work in a different UK nation - which is better but only because England was so poor.

My union is about to start a consultative ballot for industrial action in light of the nhs pay offer. I have had two family ‘acquaintances’ (who do not work or have immediate family that work for the nhs) complain in one breath about delayed appointments, delayed A+E waiting times, cancelled surgeries etc but then in another tell me that nurses going on strike is disgusting, lucky to have a job, NHS more secure employment etc. These are of course English Tory voters who said this

For reference, I have never and will never cross a picket line and will be voting in favour of industrial action (whatever form that takes due to emergency cover staffing etc).

When I was a few weeks qualified as a nurse I was looking after double the safe ratio of patients in my speciality. Completely unsupported, me and my (equally junior) colleagues having to consult google for solutions to our patients problem, if a medical emergency occurred (in ICU there should always be medical cover - this isn’t the case) we had to pull a buzzer, put out a page and get on with it until a medic appeared. This has not improved post pandemic.

In my current workplace (same speciality area), different country we are the only part of the hospital that is safe staffed, because of this every single day nurses and HCAs are sent to general wards, A+E and different hospitals often to be the only RN on a ward for 30 patients. There is such a crisis of care home beds, and ward beds that patients are staying in critical Care for weeks waiting on a ward bed. On the wards patients aren’t able to be washed each day as there might only be 1-3 staff members for 30-40 patients, meds rounds take 4 hours and ultimately patients who are sick go unnoticed until they are peri arrest. Nurses from day shift often have to stay on to night shift as there is no night shift nurse available.

I have only had negatives from the general public - it’s our fault for having degrees and being too posh to wash, bring the matrons back, etc etc. our colleagues who trained in the 80s and 90s pre degree say it is the worst it has ever been for safety and staffing. Racism and xenophobia towards our brilliant overseas colleagues is rife when they keep the NHS clinging on by a shoestring.

Four and a half years ago I was a first year student nurse and times were hard for the NHS, it has only got worse and worse for my patients since then. For the sake of my patients I will take industrial action.

However, it is so concerning how anti union, anti public sector and pro Tory the English public seem to have become? The decisions and government of Westminster negatively affect every nhs patient and worker in the UK. Just look at the widespread abuse, disdain and disgust directed at the RMT workers recently. I fear the same or worse for NHS workers.

So, is this NHS worker wrong for not enjoying being told to be grateful to work for the NHS? Is there any future for the public sector of the UK?

I apologise if I seem to have generalised England but I am English and from a northern Tory heartland. An area completely brainwashed.

OP posts:
justasking111 · 29/06/2022 12:48

The do no harm oath I thought had been discontinued or optional

Topgub · 29/06/2022 12:48

@Louise0701

You must have a limited number of higher earning posts? There must be an end point of promotion?

Can you appreciate thats not possible for nurses?

There are a limited number of band 6 posts. And even more limited number of band 7 or 8s.

People leaving because the pay is shit for the job and they can get better pay for less stress elsewhere is part of why things are as bad as they are.

Saying, you knew what you were getting into, if you want more money leave, is exactly what is happening.

If people can argue that higher earners deserve their wages because of stressful jobs and long working hours then nurses can argue the same for the same wages higher earners get for doing easier jobs

justasking111 · 29/06/2022 12:51

Look if you have the money buy a private health care plan, family and friends in the NHS are advising this. To add we're in Wales so maybe health insurance not needed in England, Scotland or northern Ireland

AchatAVendre · 29/06/2022 12:52

Topgub · 29/06/2022 10:41

@RosesAndHellebores

None of those answer how much more the European systems cost each individual. Or how they fund elderly and social care.

Or how we improve staffing levels of all specialities

Or how we improve direct pt care

You're obviously not that interested in knowing the answer, because I posted upthread that French insurance with a long stay visa costs £200 per month for a person in their fifties with average health. Thats not the French system but privately insures you to use it. Its not me either, but a friend.

I'm no expert but I do know that employer's health contributions are much higher in the UK than in France. Another big difference is that inheritance tax starts at 60% from zero, which also helps prevent over-heating of the housing market. But thats a different issue. Does mean there is more tax intake from inheritance tax though to go towards the overall tax take. OTOH things like council tax (in France the tax fonciere and the resident's tax for non-permanent residents) is cheap compared to the UK and thats the case for most of Europe.

I've heard £120 per month for similar healthcare in The Netherlands. Obviously, it will depend on which insurer you choose.

Topgub · 29/06/2022 12:54

@AchatAVendre

I didnt see your comment but it doesn't answer my question anyway.

justasking111 · 29/06/2022 12:56

We could double front line salary tomorrow it wouldn't solve the problems. We should listen to their problems, paperwork, crap administration, to name two. I was stunned to see our hospital advertising for administrative staff on the wall next to the lifts 80k pen pushing jobs. It's a slap in the face.

Go Google your health board vacancies and see who's emptying the coffers

AchatAVendre · 29/06/2022 12:56

Topgub · 29/06/2022 12:54

@AchatAVendre

I didnt see your comment but it doesn't answer my question anyway.

Well, perhaps its time for you to go and do some googling then.

Topgub · 29/06/2022 13:09

@AchatAVendre

Its not me arguing the European systems are amazingly better and the answer to all our problems

I presumed those proposing the change at least knew the basics of funding.

But yeah, I will see what I can find out.

JudyGemstone · 29/06/2022 13:46

Dave20 · 28/06/2022 22:54

I was listening to radio 2 today about workers and strike action.
One caller said about the police and NHS that it’s not just about money , it’s increasing staff numbers too. She said that even if the staff had a pay rise they would still have the same problems.

The NHS is recruiting, but maybe people don’t want to go into these jobs anymore, taking a simplistic view.

I’m a B7 psychotherapist and the main issue for us currently isn’t money, it’s staffing.
we have money to recruit but we can’t.
People don’t want to work for an nhs service anymore and I don’t know what the solution is.

cricketwidoww · 29/06/2022 14:52

When the nightingale was formed, nhs contracts were given to private staffers who had no issue charting the nhs 3k a day. No medical experience. Pointless

oldageprancer · 29/06/2022 16:29

drinkingwineoutofamug · 29/06/2022 10:13

I'm a nursing associate. Only difference between me and a band 5 is that they can connect iv medication
I'm a band 4.
I get £11.53 an hour.
I work on a dementia locked ward.
We have literally no staff. 4 hca and 5 sn have handed in their notice.
We have 25 patients, majority are aggressive, high risk of falls , attacking staff and each other.
We work with 3:2
Last week we needed 6 1:1 carers. It didn't happen.
I ended up bit, punched in the face and kicked in the stomach.
I'm only 2 years qualified and had enough.

Yes the pay scales are freely available online, which is also where I got the average nursing salary from - it's £33-35k which is what I earn with also a phd, funnily enough.

www.nurses.co.uk/blog/a-quick-overview-of-nurses--salaries-in-the-uk-in-2022/

My nursing friends all earn 50k + and yes that is after years, but I think is a pretty decent salary. Some are within GP surgeries - try that for £££, posters on small nursing salaries, as you will be laughing on £55k+. Some earn £70k+ but I didn't want to muddy the waters on my first post about salary.

I think the average of £33-36k is a pretty decent salary tbh. Obviously it's all relative. I know mumsnetters often think anything below £100k is poverty wages. Perhaps they are all nurses.

oldageprancer · 29/06/2022 16:32

Speaking of phds, I saw a job advertised last week for under £30k which required a phd. Obviously not in the nursing field - as that would pay more.

Not all salaries are all that great!

Nursing pays more than the median, so is objectively more than the average.

Whatafielddayfortheheat · 29/06/2022 16:33

A close family member is a hospital doctor and regularly works 14 hours in a row with no break to eat, drink water or wee. This is not an exaggeration and it's becoming more regular. It's illegal of course but what help is there when there isn't enough staff?

Topgub · 29/06/2022 17:11

@oldageprancer

It should be?

It shod be well above the average wage

oldageprancer · 29/06/2022 17:37

Topgub · 29/06/2022 17:11

@oldageprancer

It should be?

It shod be well above the average wage

In your opinion.

Not in mine. Not for nurses anyway. Definitely for doctors. They are underpaid compared to peers and for the level of responsibility.

Topgub · 29/06/2022 17:42

@oldageprancer

Based on?

TolkiensFallow · 29/06/2022 17:46

Fellow public sector worker here. I stand with you.

MoveBitch · 29/06/2022 17:56

Essex hospital A&E

We need more of whistleblowers like these to get the real story of how horrific it is atm

PomRuns · 29/06/2022 18:00

The resentment that nurses are paid is so odd. You’re not going to get a balanced opinion on mn - teacher threads often go the same way.

Strawberrypicnic · 29/06/2022 18:04

Thanks for what you do. It seems hugely stressful and I feel terrified that the government are willing to push people like you, truly essential workers and already running on vast amounts of goodwill, to the point where you feel forced to withdraw labour. There are definitely a huge number of people who appreciate your dedication and the tough conditions you are working under, perhaps they are not as vocal as the other side, but they're there.

mbosnz · 29/06/2022 18:07

How come 'all the market will bear' rulez, ok, until we're talking about much needed roles like nurses, doctors, teachers, RMT workers, care workers, etc, who it seems, all agree are fundamental, much needed jobs (given how much outraged bitching goes on if they strike or work to rule), but, um, well, you're supposed to do this for very mediocre wages, extremely crappy work conditions, and love?

RosesAndHellebores · 29/06/2022 18:25

Figures for 2017/18/19 which are the most up to date I can find and I couldn't quickly find like for like comparators for the same year in the same currency but broadly:

France - GDP 11.2%, £3702 per head
UK - GDP 9.6%, £2989 per head

I would happily pay an extra £700 per year to have healthcare on a par with that in France - I'd pay more than that. I am not sure I would pay more for the NHS as it stands now.

oldageprancer · 29/06/2022 18:27

Topgub · 29/06/2022 17:42

@oldageprancer

Based on?

They need a minimum 3 As to get to med school, though it's much more competitive than that so they are the top of their class, head boy/girl type of A personality types with impressive CVs age 17, who would otherwise end up in finance on megabucks. Nurses - not so much.

They train 37 hour + weeks from first year med school for the next 5 or 6 years, at which point they then get ... the same pay as a band 5 nurse. It takes even longer to get beyond junior doctor rates into consultant pay bands. By this point, their top of the class peers in different fields are usually still out-earning them.

That's the peers comparison.

They are the ones actually making the decisions and holding ultimate responsibility, for the responsibility aspect.

It's a personal opinion.

Most people could be nurses based on ability and intellect. Hence the pay is just above median. Most people could not be doctors, whether they wanted to or not. Pay should reflect that

mbosnz · 29/06/2022 18:34

Most people could be - based on intellect and ability? I know I couldn't. On intellect, yes. On ability, yes? On dealing with what they do - with patients, doctors, family of patients, dealing with all the bullshit re paperwork and in house politics? Hells no.

We cannae get the nurses. Not for the love. Not for the money. What does that tell us?

PomRuns · 29/06/2022 18:37

@oldageprancer that a really outdated view of nursing. There are many advanced roles with extensive training required. Nurses and drs work together, with the experience they need each other. There are even nurse led services where nurses employ drs.
Some of your post is really quite rude. Not sure why you feel the need to be.

Swipe left for the next trending thread