Do the general public know how bad the conditions in the NHS are?

[Gakatsbsk]

Hello

Expecting to be roasted.

However, I’m an NHS staff nurse. Qualified almost 2 years. I’ve worked through the pandemic. I initially worked in England and now work in a different UK nation - which is better but only because England was so poor.

My union is about to start a consultative ballot for industrial action in light of the nhs pay offer. I have had two family ‘acquaintances’ (who do not work or have immediate family that work for the nhs) complain in one breath about delayed appointments, delayed A+E waiting times, cancelled surgeries etc but then in another tell me that nurses going on strike is disgusting, lucky to have a job, NHS more secure employment etc. These are of course English Tory voters who said this

For reference, I have never and will never cross a picket line and will be voting in favour of industrial action (whatever form that takes due to emergency cover staffing etc).

When I was a few weeks qualified as a nurse I was looking after double the safe ratio of patients in my speciality. Completely unsupported, me and my (equally junior) colleagues having to consult google for solutions to our patients problem, if a medical emergency occurred (in ICU there should always be medical cover - this isn’t the case) we had to pull a buzzer, put out a page and get on with it until a medic appeared. This has not improved post pandemic.

In my current workplace (same speciality area), different country we are the only part of the hospital that is safe staffed, because of this every single day nurses and HCAs are sent to general wards, A+E and different hospitals often to be the only RN on a ward for 30 patients. There is such a crisis of care home beds, and ward beds that patients are staying in critical Care for weeks waiting on a ward bed. On the wards patients aren’t able to be washed each day as there might only be 1-3 staff members for 30-40 patients, meds rounds take 4 hours and ultimately patients who are sick go unnoticed until they are peri arrest. Nurses from day shift often have to stay on to night shift as there is no night shift nurse available.

I have only had negatives from the general public - it’s our fault for having degrees and being too posh to wash, bring the matrons back, etc etc. our colleagues who trained in the 80s and 90s pre degree say it is the worst it has ever been for safety and staffing. Racism and xenophobia towards our brilliant overseas colleagues is rife when they keep the NHS clinging on by a shoestring.

Four and a half years ago I was a first year student nurse and times were hard for the NHS, it has only got worse and worse for my patients since then. For the sake of my patients I will take industrial action.

However, it is so concerning how anti union, anti public sector and pro Tory the English public seem to have become? The decisions and government of Westminster negatively affect every nhs patient and worker in the UK. Just look at the widespread abuse, disdain and disgust directed at the RMT workers recently. I fear the same or worse for NHS workers.

So, is this NHS worker wrong for not enjoying being told to be grateful to work for the NHS? Is there any future for the public sector of the UK?

I apologise if I seem to have generalised England but I am English and from a northern Tory heartland. An area completely brainwashed.

@Louise0701
Are you aware of interest rates? That interest is charged from the moment the loan pays the degree? There is also 3k a year maintenance loan?

A quick google would show this, pretty common knowledge.

Again I’ve woken up to some interesting replies.

Some of the ardent anti nhs posters seem to have posted again and again.

This thread has been interesting but has sadly confirmed that as a nation we are so divided.

I might not reply further, as we seem to be a the point where it’s the same points over and over.

It’s an interesting thread don’t go.

for me it’s all about how your professions are forced to be silent about needs/conditions and instead can only campaign for pay. Because of the law.

your pay requests (reasonable) are hopelessly confusing the public and distracting us and distancing us from you, especially in the case of doctors. If your profession had its voice heard about conditions only, we would listen (and then we would probably spontaneously think about your pay).
as you say: “Patients are being failed. We of course know being paid more won’t fix this but at the movement patients are dying due to unsafe conditions.”

The NHS also provides a lot to private companies in way of expertise and equipment. So some residential homes for instance get equipment for their residents via the NHS , stuff like pressure relieving equipment and profiling beds/air mattresses. The problem is if a person is referred to the community teams for say a simple skin tear, if they develop pressure damage whilst 'under our care' even if we only see them once a week, we are to blame, not the home who is providing care 24/7, so we, the NHS, have to provide the pressure relieving equipment to cover our backs. The homes obviously know this and so refer any red mark and being risk averse we provide equipment. Good for the person with the red mark, great for the private company and not so good for the NHS budget !
All nursing care is provided by the NHS and of course the bar is set so high nowadays for eligibility for a nursing home placement, that most residential homes have residents who even 10 years ago would have been able to access a nursing home placement.
In my area the number of private residential homes/ serviced retirement flats, has increased dramatically. To make up for this increase in demand on all the services, the CCG might get a few tens of thousands of pounds as a one off payment, which is a drop in the ocean of the true cost.

Sorry all nursing care in residential homes is provided by the NHS.

I agreed with people that systems in other European countries are much better. However, this is not even in the list of any political party. And even if they did it would take at least a decade. In the mean time, we want better conditions.
A friend of mine (therapist) worked in France. Pay was better and they didn’t have that many buzzwords like quality improvement, clinical governance whatever, she just delivered her clinical work and admin time (including meetings were kept to a minimum).
the big issue in uk is SOCIAL CARE. I have family in other European countries. They all take turns to care for their mother. Her pension fully pays toward a night carer, rest is done by family. If she wanted a nursing home if would come from her house and salary, which is ok because my family understand this is her money and not theirs. My international colleagues are always amazed at the beginning about the power families have. This week we had an elderly man for discharge. Family said they were going on holidays and cruising for 3 weeks. Now this patient is going to a interim bed at the expense of the tax payer. A few weeks ago a lady’s family went to Spain for 6 weeks, so they kindly asked us not to discharge her until this. Honestly this is taking the piss. There should be a charge to families for sitting services like this, more people would cancel their holidays if they faced a bill of 1k+.
lastly, in general people from middle to upper classes can provide less support for their parents. But they are very good at raising complains and they don’t think it is acceptable to discharge their mum home with only 4 care calls a day. They wont even do the shop for their mums as they work long hours (they live in the same town!) and demand social work to organise this. This sense of entitlement needs to stop, especially when families would certainly we able to help if these services cost a fee. On the other it never amazes me how families from poorer background stick together and organise Rotas or move home if needed to mind their parents

@Gakatsbsk if it’s common knowledge, didn’t you know about it before you chose to train? If so, why are you complaining about it now?

Because when I graduated 15 years ago, the salary was good and you afford things in that salary?

@TiredNHS have you not worked your way up and moved up bands? Done further qualifications to increase your salary?

I'm a nursing associate. Only difference between me and a band 5 is that they can connect iv medication
I'm a band 4.
I get £11.53 an hour.
I work on a dementia locked ward.
We have literally no staff. 4 hca and 5 sn have handed in their notice.
We have 25 patients, majority are aggressive, high risk of falls , attacking staff and each other.
We work with 3:2
Last week we needed 6 1:1 carers. It didn't happen.
I ended up bit, punched in the face and kicked in the stomach.
I'm only 2 years qualified and had enough.

I have a masters in my field and a lot of courses and qualifications. But that’s not enough apparently to move up. I have even received interview training but it’s about saying all the buzzwords, but apparently too many people in my trust wants to move up like me and there is not that many band 7 jobs asvertised

It’s not as easy, that’s why most nurses are and will be a band 5 all their lives despite having a lot of extra skills and qualifications.

@Louise0701

Does your company offer yearly pay rises and promotions for all staff?

How do you replace the staff you're continually promoting to higher and higher wages?

My own trust got charged £400 for 2 padlocks last year, and they paid it! It's obscene

This sort of thing happens throughout public services. Years ago I went to the school bursar, I could buy very basic calculators for 75p on a local offer, I was told I couldn't do it, I had to go through the official supplier who charged £3.95 for the exact same product.

@Louise0701

The Tory government got rid of the bursary and introduced tuition fees two months after I had accepted my place and one month before starting my nursing degree.

I am complaining about conditions, unsafe conditions where patients are dying and staff have ptsd - the tuition fees is adding insult to injury. Please read all PP of mine instead of just jumping in and making assumptions.

I’m a junior doctor. I completely agree. We will strike soon too I expect, it’s now made the national press.

I will strike as a doctor, knowing patients may die during strikes or come to harm because continuing as we are is so unsustainable. We are at a tipping point. It’s unimaginable for people who aren’t exposed to it. But strikes and change need to happen or more will die in the long term.

Does no one care about the moral injury that we face in the nhs? The horror of going into professions to help others and giving substandard care because we are stretched so thin. The agonies or watching patients suffer because they are waiting for appropriate care or we can’t get them the specialist help they need quickly enough. It’s horrendous.

As a doctor I will support nurses striking, I’ve seen the conditions you work under, not safe or fair.

Okay I apologise I’ve misread your comment as being from another post. There are social care nurses in Scotland but somehow DNs still have to provide some elements of nursing care. I take it this is what you mean? I misread this as you saying all social care is NHS and blamed on the NHS. When it isn’t. My bad

@RosesAndHellebores

None of those answer how much more the European systems cost each individual. Or how they fund elderly and social care.

Or how we improve staffing levels of all specialities

Or how we improve direct pt care

@Medstudent12

❤️

This shows ignorance of the NHS pay structure. There isn't a lot of progression in AfC, if you want to remain nursing (providing clinical care to patients) you can only really go up one band from starting salary. Maybe two if you're an ANP but those jobs are few and far between. Beyond a 6 is usually management, and that's often not what people went into nursing for. Also, as you go higher up the pay grades you stop doing shift work (as it costs the NHS too much). My staff nurse DP (band 5) took home more or less the same as I did as a M-F band 7. Even if he was to become a SCN (a 2 grade promotion) his take home pay wouldn't increase by more than a couple of hundred a month, and that would realistically be as high as he'd expect to progress.

And doing further qualifications doesn't necessarily increase your salary. I'm not a nurse but I am a HCP. 10 years ago if you had the qualifications I have in mind you'd have been an 8a at least. Now our 6s are expected to have them.

@TiredNHS with all due respect my MIL is 86 and has Parkinson's related dementia. At present she has a carer once a day, at lunchtime, who makes sure she is OK and cooks her lunch She does not meet NHS thresholds and my husband pays (£150 pw plus VAT and on-costs). He visits once a month. She is 240 miles away.

We ha e no expectation that the state will pick-up her care. She has her own TPS pension (former deputy head) and a widows pension from her late husband. She saves about £25k pet annum from her pension income and that will go towards care and keeping her at home. She will not go into a home; DH will pay for her to have all the care she may need at home and accepts that may be £8-£10k pcm if 24/7 care becomes necessary.

Not all middle and upper class English people are entitled and I am sorry you have that view.

@Topgub yes we do. We replace them via our links with the local colleges so either take newly qualified staff or apprentices and train them on the job alongside 1 day a week in college.

care in our cul de sac today we have Three elderly people out of ten properties. Care does escalate from once a day to four times a day. It works well until they start falling breaking bones hitting the head on furniture. Then it's in and out of hospital if you're lucky. Only one neighbour is going into a nursing home. Broken hip refused physio. In the past six years four died at home with wrap around care but it's costly.

@medstudent12 is suffering a moral injury the same as being spoken to as if one has zero brain cells by a junior Dr who is both exceptionally discourteous and incompetent proven by their confirmation that there was no vertebral fracture when the T12 had collapsed by 40% and that was subsequent to arguing whether it was necessary and telling me I had to trust her because she'd been to medical school?

If you are happy to allow people to die due to striking then you are not compliant with the oath to do no harm. You should be ashamed of yourself. I hope every preventable death arising from your personal actions is drawn to your attention by your Trust and that you are able to live with yourself.