A question for the pro-life members of MN

[SemperIdem]

The biggest argument always boils down to “taking a life away, acting like God”.

So - how does IVF sit with you? Are you anti it, because it is “acting like God”. Are you for it because acting like God to create a life is somehow fine whereas taking one away is not?

Do you understand that many IVF pregnancies are high risk and may ultimately require medical management aka abortions?

I’m firmly pro science and think access to both abortions and IVF is a wonderful thing, for avoidance of doubt.

One never sees protests outside fertility clinics and I wondered why.

But what I'm saying is what if contraception failed and you're someone who doesn't have regular periods and hasn't had any symptoms? It's definitely possible. People don't just take pregnancy tests every month just in case. I would only test if I were trying or if I thought I could be.

You know that only a tiny % of abortions happen as you get closer to the current UK limit, and that in the vast, vast, vast majority of those cases it's done for medical reasons.

Right?

Would you think it was a moral issue if a healthy woman aborted a healthy baby at 40 weeks, or does being vehemently pro choice have its limits?

No adult is that short-sighted surely?

Maybe because the commandment is "thou shalt not kill" (relevant in the case of abortion if you view the embryo as a life) and elsewhere in the Bible is the "go forth and multiply" bit. So they are not equivalent at all - God said do one and don't do the other one.

I'd be intrigued to know what these pro-lifers do to help children stuck in the care system, mothers with PTSD, post-natal depression etc from being forced to give birth, mothers with no means to support the baby they didn't want to carry, girls having to live with being a 14 year old victim of rape and incest to then have to birth their father/brother/cousin's baby and so on. Forcing girls and women to carry, birth, and raise babies they have zero intention of ever having anything to do with is so bizarre. Pro-life when its an insentient foetus but not pro-life when the mother kills herself trying to perform an unsafe abortion on herself? Or when the burden of carrying an unwanted child becomes so much that she takes her life? Or when the children are stuck in the care system because these pro-lifers don't actually give a shit about what happens to these children after they are born? Not to mention when it is a case of an abortion or the death of the mother. Do you really think an unborn foetus with no chance of survival anyway is worth more than an alive woman?

@BeyondMyWits you can't abort a baby at 40 weeks.

Anyone who says that they oppose abortion apart from in a rape situation is effectively saying I only care about how and the means a woman got pregnant

interesting point, because this statement suggests that the woman should be judged by her actions prior to inception. Therefore a decent woman can have an abortion if she was sullied by a male, but a woman who chooses to freely have sex shouldn’t be. It is a judgment on a woman’s ‘morals’ which shouldn’t be anyone else’s business nor should they be held to accountable by anyone other than themselves.

I would be horrified if one of my girls found themselves pregnant and didn’t want to be, however that happened. They should have that choice.

And what grates, are these pro-lifers who don’t petition for better health care, benefits, clothes and schooling for children who they want to save -

@SemperIdem
thanks I was just interested in your opinion.

Yes, you can.

The pro-lifers I know are also pro-IVF as long as donated sperm/egg isn't used and as long as no embryos are destroyed.

It isn't a judgement on someone's behaviour. It is a judgement on how much suffering someone should have to do on behalf of somebody else. And some people think forced pregnancy and birth of an incest or rape baby is too much suffering whole forced pregnancy and birth in other circumstances is not.

I think for me as someone who does have a faith, I just can’t get past that the foetus is a person albeit tiny with lots of support. I don’t get how pro choice people can treat their wanted pregnancy so well (like their baby not cells) and not see the babyhood of other people’s pregnancies. Re incompatibility, I know a few women who had babies with Edwards Syndrome, everyone of them are glad they got that time with their child despite the heartbreak (died at 8 months pregnant-died 1hr after birth). However with pro life it has to come with supporting societal change to allow mums support so they’re confident to keep their baby eg better maternal support/childcare help, disability support (incidentally a NI paediatrician told me support for children with Down’s syndrome is much better in NI bc more are born due to lack of options). we considered IVF and agreed all foetus created wouldn’t be destroyed, either implanted, stored or donated.

Only, as others have said IVF can involve destruction of fertilised embryos and so whilst you are fulfilling the ‘go forth and multiply’ you are doing so in the knowledge that you are, or may be going against the ‘thou shalt not kill’ commandment. So, that doesn’t really wash.

Because killing someone is harmful while creating life is not? I really don’t think this is heart of the moral conundrum, the real issue is whether you think the embryo or foetus is a person. Because we all - I hope - agree that killing people is wrong.

But from a Christian perspective the bible say “do not murder” and also that God knits us together in our mother’s womb

The Bible says a lot of things, most of which are completely ignored. Why pick this particular thing to make a massive deal about? It's rather convenient

@BeyondMyWits - could you explain how you can abort a baby at 40 weeks?

Only, as others have said IVF can involve destruction of fertilised embryos and so whilst you are fulfilling the ‘go forth and multiply’ you are doing so in the knowledge that you are, or may be going against the ‘thou shalt not kill’ commandment. So, that doesn’t really wash.

pro lifers will opt for the type of ivf that doesn’t involve extra embryos.

This is what I don't understand. Wouldn't they just induce you and the baby would be put up for adoption if you're full term (37 weeks +)? Pretty sure it's not referred to as abortion.

Foetus, not baby. And it would be much the same way you would at 18 weeks, or 28.

Firmly pro choice and have had a abortion.
These sort of hectoring questions are far from useful.
I ‘m sure you can believe one thing is ok and not another. Same as people are different versions of vegetarian or are environmentalist but happy to smoke stuff imported halfway across the world.

Also it makes you sound a bit thick. You can come up with reasons yourself surely.

When/where has this ever actually happened?

Re argument that unwanted pregnancies end up in the care system, I know care leavers that hate being used as that argument. As you’re effectively saying a bad childhood means they are better not born. But yes obviously, pro life people and everyone really need to fight for a much better care system

You cannot abort a baby at 40 weeks 🤨