A question for the pro-life members of MN

[SemperIdem]

The biggest argument always boils down to “taking a life away, acting like God”.

So - how does IVF sit with you? Are you anti it, because it is “acting like God”. Are you for it because acting like God to create a life is somehow fine whereas taking one away is not?

Do you understand that many IVF pregnancies are high risk and may ultimately require medical management aka abortions?

I’m firmly pro science and think access to both abortions and IVF is a wonderful thing, for avoidance of doubt.

One never sees protests outside fertility clinics and I wondered why.

I'm vehemently pro choice but not sure this what aboutery is helpful. If you believe life begins at conception then you view abortion as murder. People talk about murder as "playing God" sometimes too but they're likely to have stronger moral objections to murder than artificially saving a life through science, and people view murder as ethically wrong whether they're religious or not. You're unlikely to persuade people who view abortion as akin to murder with hypothetical scenarios (which is why I agree the caveats are a bit grotesque as they tend to portray that that's not the perspective at all but more about assigning moral judgment on the right to choose).

I am strongly pro life so anti abortion but I also think IVF is a wonderful thing.

I'm not sure your question completely applies to me as I'm a lifelong atheist, not a religious bone in my body, but I have no issue with IVF.

@hangonsnoopy

For clarity - having abortions is not a moral issue because I don’t believe life begins at conception.

Forced pregnancy and birth however, is a moral issue for a variety of reasons.

And I say this as someone who had their rapists baby. 'Baby' is now my almost teenage girl, whom I love. But, despite the shit (he ended up raping another woman and then went to prison), I will never ever tell another woman what I think she should do with her body. The amount of shit I got from midwives, doctors, parents..telling me that my baby would be fatherless, that (by doctor) it was a selfish decision, makes me even more determined to let women do what is best for them and their situation.

I think it varies on when you believe life begins.

From a religious perspective, if you believe that life begins at conception, and that the multi cellular organism is a separate “life”, then IVF may be a problem.

Before abortion became a question of statute law, the question of when ending a pregnancy was criminal or not depended on whether “quickening” had taken place (ie was the baby moving and therefore a conscious human being) which happens at around 13 weeks.

That is the reason that most European countries (including Ireland where it was recently legalised) have a 12 week limit for abortion on demand. Before that, it’s not conscious, can’t feel pain and isn’t thought of as a human, only a potential human.

When the UK came to decriminalise abortion in certain circumstances, the UK adopted a different approach to the limit and based it on viability. The original abortion limit was 28 weeks but this was reduced to 24 in 1990 on the basis that many premature babies born at 24 weeks or before can and do survive.

That’s one reason why many people who are opposed to abortion on demand are OK with IVF.

Rape convictions are in single digits globally so what happens if a woman says she was raped, perpetrator gets off , dies the rape victim then get charged with murder? Anyone who says that they oppose abortion apart from in a rape situation is effectively saying I only care about how and the means a woman got pregnant. ProChoice and Proud. Don't start me on the forced Birthers in the USA who are only interested in a "pre bornbaby " because it's just regarded as a freeloader when it arrives. I have more respect for the idiots who admit it's trying to control and punish woman from fornicating. I am Irish and lived under the 8th aMendment where braindead were kept alive and cancer patients pregnancy tested pre chemo Incase they were pregnant. As skunk anansie said yes it's freaking political

Surely forced pregnancy and birth and forced abortions are moral issues for exactly the same reason? They remove someone's reproductive rights.

@SemperIdem
can I ask why you don’t think it’s a moral issue ?

I'm in favour of much stricter time limits (first trimester for social reasons). I'd favour free and readily available pregnancy tests, making contraceptives easier to obtain, tightening up on fathers paying maintenance and extra support for those who find themselves unexpectedly pregnant. I'd support extra funding to try to develop more reliable forms on contraception, as ultimately, both aides 'win' if there are fewer unwanted pregnancies.

I believe abortion is destruction of human life. However in the early stages I dont think its akin to murder. If it were, then I would be campaigning for more funding to reduce miscarriages also.

I consider TFMR to be more akin to euthanasia, than abortion personally, and where pregnancy is not viable because of the effect on the mothers health, then obviously you save the mum's life, so at least someone survives!

I personally would not have IVF if it meant the creation of extra embryo's. I do not oppose IVF, as I think first trimester abortions should be allowed I personally would not have an abortion for social reasons at any geststion. I would have a late term termination if it was discovered that the alternative was letting my baby due in pain in birth or have a life of suffering.

I think I’m being thick here. What do you mean by rape convictions are in the single digits globally?

@PetraBP

That’s really interesting, I can understand how that line of thinking has come to be.

But the ‘social reasons’ are really important for welfare reasons. If we say you can’t have an abortion at 16 weeks just because you don’t want a baby, how do you then force the woman to care for a baby she doesn’t want?

In my head, I've always "known" I couldn't have an abortion. But then, I've not been pregnant through rape/incest. I've not got 3 kids and no money, or an abusive husband. I'm not 15, pregnant and scared. Actually I'm not pregnant at all.

So what I should say is I've always "hoped" I wouldn't need an abortion. I can hold myself closely to my beliefs, but who am I to hold someone else to them?

12 weeks is nothing. I found out I was pregnant at 12 weeks. Had absolutely no idea. Had an abortion at 14 weeks.

Absolutely the best decision for me, do not and have not ever regretted it.

Sorry I know that's slightly off topic, I'm just shocked that other posters cannot envision a situation where a woman would need an abortion past 12 weeks.

What I've never understood is the exception for rape and incest. Surely a life is a life.

I have seen this mentioned... not so much the IVF itself but when unused embryos are discarded or destroyed

seems a lot of hard ‘pro-lifers’ are not bothered by this

Alabama State Senator Clyde Chambliss: “The egg in the lab doesn't apply. It's not in a woman. She's not pregnant.”

I think that says a lot really 🙄

i can’t believe anyone could genuinely believe this.

If you don't agree with abortion, what is your plan to support the women who will be forced to have children they didn't want? And how do you plan to support the children themselves?

Will you campaign for a law that ensures the fathers pay for the children they create? Will you ensure the women are financially compensated for the time they will have off work and the costs associated with pregnancy - clothing, food etc?
Will you ensure that adequate financial provision is made for these children? Will you find the money to invest in our broken maternity services? What about funding for all the new school places that will be needed?

Being anti abortion is totally your right as regards your own body. But if you seek to impose your views on other women, you must accept that a ban on abortion does not reduce pregnancies, it just results in more unwanted babies being born, a cost that should be carried by the whole of the society that has sought to control women's bodies.

I'm in favour of much stricter time limits (first trimester for social reasons).

What on earth are "social reasons" though @Somuchgoo ? Who exactly is going to be policing it?

What happens when "social reasons" emerge once you're past the first trimester of pregnancy? You partner becomes abusive, you lose your right to live in the US, your family who were inititally supportive now threaten you with "honor" violence? You lose your source of income and housing and have no way of bringing the child into a stable environment? Your existing child is diagnosed with something terrible and will need 100% of your time?

The issue with this - as there always is - is you're putting the decision in the hands of others, which will obviously disproportionately effect poor and ethnic minority women.

Realistically, these later term abortions that the anti-choice crowd keep bringing up make a fraction of all terminations and occur due to specific reasons, rather than

@ShamefullPast

In terms of having an abortion (for social or medical reasons) - I don’t think it is a moral issue. I don’t believe life starts at conception, I don’t believe a foetus should have rights that supersede a woman’s.

I’m firmly in favour of women having autonomy over their own bodies. For that reason forced pregnancy, birth or abortion are moral issues because they remove that autonomy.

The Catholic Church doesn't 'believe' in abortion, barrier contraception, IVF, divorce, gay marriage. It's basically fucked. I'm an Irish ex catholic and my kids are in their last year of catholic primary. If I have to sit through the SPUC flag ever again it will be too soon.

Any don't you agree with sperm donation?

Doreen, aren't many people weighing up competing demands?

We all weigh up all the time how much of a sacrifice we are prepared to make for other people.

YABU only for using the phrase pro-life. Don't let them get away with that euphemism.