A question for the pro-life members of MN

[SemperIdem]

The biggest argument always boils down to “taking a life away, acting like God”.

So - how does IVF sit with you? Are you anti it, because it is “acting like God”. Are you for it because acting like God to create a life is somehow fine whereas taking one away is not?

Do you understand that many IVF pregnancies are high risk and may ultimately require medical management aka abortions?

I’m firmly pro science and think access to both abortions and IVF is a wonderful thing, for avoidance of doubt.

One never sees protests outside fertility clinics and I wondered why.

I was thinking of starting a thread for people who were pro life but will try and ask in this one instead.

Prolifers who believe all abortion is wrong make sense to me. I disagree but I get it. You think it's a baby from conception or "heartbeats" or whatever and you are against killing what you perceive as a baby. Fair enough.

What bugs me is "pro lifers"who believe in abortion for rape or incest but nothing else. How the fuck is that anything other than misogyny? How can you justify that position other than punishing women for having sex?

It most definitely is misogyny - pure and simple

Yup

And god knows how you're supposed to you were raped, and therefore are allowed an abortion, in a scenario where you weren't violently attacked by a stranger.

Because that doesn't happen in legal abortion. That's why.

I agree with @Miffee I think pro life is a valid opinion...it's a simple disagreement about when you believe life begins. If you believe it's at conception, then fine. I have more respect for pro lifers if they are pro life regardless of circumstances. If you truly believe that abortion is murder than the circumstances around conception are irrelevant. If you are against abortion except in instances of rape then what you are really saying is that you think women should be punished for willingly having sex.

@Comedycook

but even if you believe that life starts at the moment of conception, why does that foetuses life mean more than the women’s?

I'm not pro life @LuckySantangelo35 I'm pro choice

Lots of people believe that life starts at conception but that life isn’t of equal value to the mothers at conception. As the cells become a baby that balance tips to the point where a woman can’t end that life without a special reason (like a serious medical issue). That is the basis of the current law.
Essentially I believe there is a qualitative difference to life in the womb at 6 weeks and life at 26 weeks where this life is a fully formed baby with immature organs.

I don't think I am suggesting that. China has had very unrestricted access to abortion for decades, and a very high abortion rate. They have recently tightened things up, but it was easy and encouraged to have abortions. Actually, we know they were forced and hear they are still being forced on the Uighur population. Nazi Germany did not restrict abortions for Polish and Slavic people, unlike the 'healthy German citizens.' Eventually they started to force these unrestricted abortions. I know you are not imagining repressive regimes when you defend lifting all restrictions. I just think you can't count on any regime staying the same. I think we have good reasons for our own checks and balances, and a balance of rights.

@Dancingwithhyenas Yes, well put.

I think most people (except for on mn) occupy the middle ground - they neither think that all abortion should be banned, or that for any reason at any gestation is ok.

Ps: there is no such thing as 'forced birth ' after 20ish weeks. Its vaginal birth or c section regardless. Its too late for there to be anything other than birth. The only question is whether the fetus is to be born alive or dead.

I think that's frankly an insane question. If the UK government suddenly decided to begin ethnic cleansing through forced abortion for some mad reason, I doubt they'd bother to change the law in favour of women choosing their own healthcare.

Are you aware that several US states have abortion legal with no limits? As does Canada? And what happens is that women self regulate and late term abortions are incredibly rare.

I trust women. Why don't you?

If we one day get a government who want to commit genocide via forced abortions, it won't matter what the previous restrictions were.

@CupidStunt22 Canada may have an unrestricted law, but there are no care providers offering termination after 23 weeks 6 days. Many offer less - only up to 12 weeks. Anyone wanting an abortion after 23 weeks 6 days has to travel to the states. That's the info on Action Canada for sexual health and rights, don't know if it's up to date. So, Canadians don't have access to late termination, it seems? I will look at the US.

I do trust women but I think women can be put under pressure. I was almost 40 when I had my youngest, I was at the hospital for a check up when the doctor I saw said I was late for screening blood test, I said I wasn't having it. He said I had to and if the results were worrying it was getting late to have amnio and then an abortion if it was indicated. I said I didn't have to have it, the Consultant and I had discussed it, he understood my position which was I wasn't having an abortion and knowing of any disabilities in advance wasn't going to benefit me, we'd specifically discussed that as he said some women found that helped.

The doctor shouted at me, said I was just scared of needles and really ranted at me. The midwife had to intervene and tell him to stop as I was crying by this point.

So much for a woman's choice as far as he was concerned. I would be really worried if a woman got a result indicating a serious disability and didn't instantly agree to an abortion if he was her doctor.

I also worked with someone in her 40s who had a result showing a high risk of Down's, she was offered amnio but wanted time to think, her partner was adamant she have the amnio and after some arguing she agreed. She was distressed as she wasn't sure that she wanted an abortion if the result was that it was down's. She worked with children with special needs, some with Down's and she was very unsure what she wanted to do. He was adamant she would have to have an abortion. The result was good, she had a baby who was healthy with no issues at all. The relationship struggled on for a few months but it had been so damaged that they split up. I don't know what would have happened if the result had been that the baby had Down's and she admitted that she wasn't sure she would have been able to stand up to him.

So yes I trust the woman, I don't always trust everyone around her.

I agree with dancingwithhyenas. Well put.

@CupidStunt22 Hmm, I'll be a while looking. As to why I don't trust women, it's not the point for me. My set of beliefs include that at some stage a foetus becomes a life, it should therefore have rights, therefore killing it (and maybe causing pain, fear, distress etc.) is unethical. I would say if it is happening on medical grounds it is euthanasia or a medical emergency. But if it's a healthy foetus at a late stage I think it's wrong. On a deep level. So, with that set of beliefs I'll never come to the same point of view as you. And, possibly, we should all focus on keeping the rights we currently have in the UK, rather than pushing for any radical changes.

The majority of womenthink the same as you, so again why don't you trust them?

Also, the fact that you're ok with "killing" anything less than perfectly healthy foetus' means your ethical stance is bullshit and disabilist. "It's wrong and shouldn't be allowed except for all these times when its ok..." what kind of half assed moral stance is that?

@gnilliwdog - I think you would need a medical reason to get an abortion in the US after 24 weeks. Abortion is restricted after the fetus becomes viable, i.e. when it can survive outside the womb.

Thank you. There's so much info to look at it's difficult to get an accurate picture. I looked at Alaska, and thought maybe they were offering abortion basically on demand with no gestational limit, but I think that's probably not right then. @CupidStunt22 I'm not 'OK' with killing any foetus but we offer that option after 24 weeks for medical reasons. You want to offer that option when there are no medical reasons at all. If you could supply an example of somewhere that offers abortion with no gestational limits and no medical reason, and show that there is no increase in these abortions, I may think again?

@ancientgran That must have been very traumatic for you, and your friend. Being pregnant is a vulnerable time for a woman, and the danger of them being pressured into an abortion is present, as well as the danger of being pressured into an unwanted pregnancy. I did know someone who took the first abortion pill then had to go back for the second one. She was crying and telling the nurse that she wasn't sure about it. She said the nurse was very unkind to her and told her it's too late now. She took the second pill. Probably it was too late to change her mind, but it seems to me she had not had sufficient counselling. She is still traumatised by it all, many years later,

It turns into a trolly problem at the point where you are talking about life and death for mother and/or baby. I doubt for even the most ardent "life begins at conception" prolifers there is a blanket answer. Same as with the trolley problem.

The 24 weeks thing is irrelevant to my question (I know it wasn't the quoted poster who said that). Most people seem to have a belief that at some point the pregnancy is a baby with a right to life. That point might be the moment of conception, the moment it has a heartbeat, 24 weeks or 40 weeks. Whatever time frame you put on it the point remains. The circumstances of conception should be irrelevant.

Thank you. I was lucky in that my Consultant was very supportive, I remember saying to him that doing tests was a waste of NHS money as I wouldn't be having an abortion if there was anything wrong with the baby, his reply was, "Don't worry about my budget, if knowing and being able to prepare will help you then have the tests, I promise I will be supportive of your decision whatever it is." I still didn't want it but him being neutral (not expressing any personal view about what he thought the right decision was) and kind was very important to me.

I do hope his junior doctor learned something from him. Women do need to be able to make their own decisions.

It is very sad that your friend still feels traumatised, a bit of understanding would have probably made a big difference even if the nurse was right.

Don't agree with abortion. - I’m with the CofE stance – only to save the mother’s life, or if the baby will only live a very short time outside the womb because of health problems.

Don't agree with IVF where embryos are held in stasis and sometimes destroyed or used for science either.

Very pro-contraception.

Very pro-people giving adoption some serious thought…

Thankfully the law doesn't agree with you.