A question for the pro-life members of MN

[SemperIdem]

The biggest argument always boils down to “taking a life away, acting like God”.

So - how does IVF sit with you? Are you anti it, because it is “acting like God”. Are you for it because acting like God to create a life is somehow fine whereas taking one away is not?

Do you understand that many IVF pregnancies are high risk and may ultimately require medical management aka abortions?

I’m firmly pro science and think access to both abortions and IVF is a wonderful thing, for avoidance of doubt.

One never sees protests outside fertility clinics and I wondered why.

yes, I have a family member who did not pursue fertility treatment because the next step was IVF. It's to do with the creation of embryos that might not get implanted I believe. You can understand and respect the consistency. I imagine they are against having a termination but not sure if they are anti choice for others, we rarely communicate

I'm not anti-abortion but was raised in a RC household and unless things have very much changed since I went to church, IVF IS against Catholic teachings. Someone can come along and correct me if that has changed.

@Pumperthepumper

She isn't forced to keep the child after birth though?

Fwiw I am ultimately pro choice and I agree with access to safe abortions because I think forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies and birth unwanted babies is the greater of two evils, but I do also believe that abortion is ending a human life and I'm very uncomfortable with it. For the same reason I am very uncomfortable with creating more embryos than are used in IVF. When I was having no success TTCing and about to start Clomid, I was giving serious thought to next steps and I had more or less decided against IVF for me for that reason.

But having said that, none of the above has anything to do with God.

I would argue that why even bring the limit in? If its a small number who need/want one after 12 weeks anyway, why restrict such a small group?

@couldishouldigoforit I’m sorry that happened to you, it must have been dreadful.

I understand you don’t view it as an abortion, they were wanted pregnancies. However from a medical perspective it is. That’s what the states that have banned abortions even “for the health of the mother” are referring to which is why I referred to it as such.

Of course it’s hypocritical. Many( if not most) things in life are. I know ‘pro choice’ women are against late term abortion “for no good reason”.

I agree with pp that it’ll have something to do with creating a life vs taking a life. Or something like that…

I personally think the time limit for abortions should be reduced from 26 wks to 22 wks at the latest. Medical technogy has advanced so much that extremely premature babies can be saved. I say this as someone who went into extremely premature labour.

I had my baby (who survived) at 26 wks which is the latest time an abortion can be performed in the UK. My baby was a fully formed baby just a bit smaller. So while I believe in a Woman's right to choose, I've also seen many premature babies saved. So I think an earlier time limit is a compromise of sorts as medical NICU technology has advanced so much.

I also think society should emphasise to our kids the importance of contraception and that abortion shouldn't be regarded as contraception. It puts a lot of stress, mental and physical, on a woman and its not a decision to be taken lightly. Women always end up carrying the burden of all sorts of situations & this is one of them. There are situations where continuing with the pregnancy isn't viable and abortion should be done as early as possible.

So adoption? Have you ever adopted, and if so, how old were the children?

But aside from that: how do you help the woman recover (medically and physically) from birth injuries for a child she didn’t want?

Doesn't pretty much everyone think there should be some limits on abortion though?

As a country we do place limits on it. It is a bit more complicated than people are either totally pro-choice or anti-abortion.

Just because you had issues getting pregnant, does not mean the regulations around abortion should change. The figure is 10% for abortions after 12 weeks, it's very low.

Don't agree with abortion

I don't agree with it for me. But I sure as heck 'agree' for other women to do as they see fit. But that's because I don't have my head up my arse..

Surely you're not being serious. I'm not a pro-lifer but the moral difference between creating life and ending life is patently obvious.

Interested to know what your thoughts are if someone finds out they are pregnant after 12 weeks?

(Sorry if that comes across as blunt, I'm genuinely intrigued to know how you would view this situation)

@PurpleDaisies

I didn’t intend to imply you had said one was fine and one was wrong, it was a question rather than an accusation.

@PaperDoves

Completely serious given I’m staunchly pro choice and don’t consider abortions a moral issue.

This is the thing here - so many people expect the women of the world to cow tow to their arbitrary timelines for this.

Don't want an abortion? Don't have one.
Don't want an abortion after 4, 12, 24 weeks? Don't have one.

Trying to restrict other womens bodily autonomy based solely on your own personal opinion? Shameful.

Reminds me a conversation I had once:

Woman: I don't believe in abortion

Me: I can assure you they exist. Mine certainly did.

Woman: Oh I didn't mean you <fluster fluster>

I didn’t intend to imply you had said one was fine and one was wrong, it was a question rather than an accusation.

My honest answer is that its a stupid question and a failed “gotcha” attempt. There are plenty of things that science can do that we thing are wrong. Just because it is possible to do by “science” doesn’t mean it’s ethical.

It’s absolutely obvious that some people will consider an abortion the ending of a life. IVF has nothing to do with abortion. It’s a totally different ethical argument.

How can abortion not be a moral issue for someone who is pro-choice?

By definition you must think that forced abortion is morally wrong, and wrong in a way more substantial than forcing someone to eat a Toblerone.

@restedbutexhausted

I do genuinely think there is little reason not to find out until such a later stage these days when home testing is so readily available and cheap.

I know one person who is very pro life who is incredibly religious and they are anti IVF. They are anti medical intervention too and very much of the opinion that if god wants you to get better you will…

I’m infertile. I’m not anti IVF but it’s not for me, I couldn’t see any sense in trying to create a child in that way when there are thousands of kids out there needing homes. If other people want to go down the IVF road it’s no skin off my nose but I don’t understand why that would be baffling for someone.

Your data is wrong

the general limit is 24 weeks. At 24 weeks 1 in 100 babies will go home without significant cognitive or physical impairment

pregnancies can be terminated up to term in specific circumstances.

But you have to think there’s a reason to test first. Someone very young or with irregular periods could easily assume they weren’t pregnant.