A question for the pro-life members of MN

[SemperIdem]

The biggest argument always boils down to “taking a life away, acting like God”.

So - how does IVF sit with you? Are you anti it, because it is “acting like God”. Are you for it because acting like God to create a life is somehow fine whereas taking one away is not?

Do you understand that many IVF pregnancies are high risk and may ultimately require medical management aka abortions?

I’m firmly pro science and think access to both abortions and IVF is a wonderful thing, for avoidance of doubt.

One never sees protests outside fertility clinics and I wondered why.

Of course I can't adopt every unwanted child in the UK. If we keep the law as it is in the UK a woman has up to 24 weeks to decide whether she wants to keep a baby or not. Some posters want the law changed so a woman can have an abortion at any time for any reason. Are you agreeing with that? I can pass judgement, as an unwanted 'accident' child, I appreciate my life and am glad I was born, hard though it's been. I know many accident or unwanted children, who were brought up by their parents. Maybe their lives were tough, but who are you to say they should have been killed because their parents didn't want them initially? If a woman has not decided to abort by 24 weeks she should take responsibility for creating a life. And yes, there are situations like where a woman is at risk of grave physical and/or mental injury, medical problems etc where late abortion is covered by UK law, so if the thought of having a baby caused a woman real mental distress she could have a late termination.

How many women in the UK have a later term abortion for non-medical reasons? What proportion of total abortions is this? @gnilliwdog

What evidence do you have the an easing of restrictions leads to higher numbers of abortions, or more later term abortions?

I can pass judgement, as an unwanted 'accident' child, I appreciate my life and am glad I was born, hard though it's been. I know many accident or unwanted children, who were brought up by their parents. Maybe their lives were tough, but who are you to say they should have been killed because their parents didn't want them initially?
Arguments like this have no place in such a debate, IMO. It's like when a lovely child with disabilities is brought to abortion protests and people are made to answer if it would be better if they were not alive. Horrendous.

If a woman has not decided to abort by 24 weeks she should take responsibility for creating a life

and those that don’t get the information by then? As several of us have pointed out.

My DDs condition wasn’t spotted, confirmed and explained until several weeks beyond that point. Is that just tough shit for people in that position?

Well for all those who argue that abortion should be permitted at any stage and for any reason, as someone who disagrees with you, I’m just very glad that the law of the UK, and just about every other European country disagrees with you too.

You say that the feelings of the mother trump the life of the foetus, even after 24 weeks. I disagree, and the law disagrees with you too.

The life of the foetus does not trump
the life of the mother if the mother’s life or health are at risk, but that is a different scenario.

Like it or not, your absolute right to choose does not exist, legally or morally.

To tell others that they aren’t even entitled to an opinion on this, when the law, the biology and the majority moderate opinion are against you smacks of breathtaking arrogance.

I respect your right to a different opinion even if I disagree with it. The “no debate”
culture is dangerous and I’m very glad that by allowing a diversity of opinion on here, Mumsnet is not condoning it.

Looking at gov statistics it states that in 2021 'there were 214,256 abortions for women resident in England and Wales, the highest number since the Abortion Act was introduced.' 'The age standardised abortion rate is 18.6 per thousand women, the highest rate since the Abortion Act was introduced.' There have been a number of measures to ease restrictions which may account for the steep rise - the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act, which removed restrictions to late abortions in cases of risk to life, foetal abnormality, or grave physical and mental injury to the woman. The Abortion Act also stated that abortions carried out under the terms of the Act were not offences under the Infant Life Preservation Act 1929. Mifepristone was introduced in Britain in 1991, and in 2019 women were allowed to take both pills at home. There is no indication of more late term abortions, the number remains very low, but late term abortions require serious medical concerns that are not temporary. As far as I can tell all abortions in the UK are on medical grounds, concerning physical or mental health, so there is no information on abortion on non medical grounds. On demand abortion has never been on offer here.

Well said, I'm with you.

I’ll accept your hidden thanks for starting the thread, to encourage discussion, as someone who doesn’t share your views @PetraBP

No, that is a terrible situation, but in this country the law allows you to make a decision. I support that and I am so sorry for what you must have been through. I do not support the right of a woman to abort a foetus ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON. Do you?

That's generally because the unneeded/unused embryos are destroyed.

I take a pragmatic view of English abortion law - it is such a difficult subject we are better off just leaving it as it is a a reasonable compromise. If a baby can now live out of the womb a bit earlier than the original law expected then it is not so many weeks it is worth the can of worms of changing the law. If most down's and other babies are aborted early not late on we can still keep the late abortion right for disabilities even if it is not often used as it is so hard to get changes on this through parliament.

As i said earlier on the threat most of those who are anti abortion are also not keen on IVF either (eg the Roman Catholics - 1.3bn but as someone rightly said back to me about not all 1.3bn believe the same views as their church of course and the same would go to muslims too - 1.9bn. I don't know the view of the C of E but it probably lets people decide themselves rather than saying abortion is wrong).

@gnilliwdog

“Of course I can't adopt every unwanted child in the UK.”

well there you go then!

Care so much about the unborn, when they’re here….it’s ‘no chance, soz mother get on with it, you’re on your own !’

That’s one of the (many) problems with you forced birthers

Not that it will matter to most people here, but the view of the C of E is that abortion is permissible where continuing the pregnancy puts the mother’s life is at risk or the foetus has a grave disability that is incompatible with life outside the womb.

In other words, the C of E would condone abortion where a baby would not have long to live if it was born.

@LuckySantangelo35 do you care about starving children? If you won't adopt them all you have no right to an opinion. Do you care about girls trafficked into prostitution, or fgm? No, you have not rescued them all so you have no right to an opinion. Do you support free contraception globally for women? No, you have not paid for every woman to have a choice so you can't have an opinion.

@LuckySantangelo35 I am not a forced birther. I believe in giving women ample opportunity to seek a termination, but there should be grounds and limits. I agree with @PetraBP and @Xenia that the UK provision is sufficient and there is no need to change the law. And thank you for your question to pro lifers @SemperIdem . It's made me rather red in the face but given me clarity on various positions. Good to discuss.

I do not support the right of a woman to abort a foetus ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON. Do you?

I do. It's the only logical position to hold. It's the only morally acceptable one.

@CupidStunt22 I applaud your honesty. But how would you prevent such legislation being abused? At the moment doctors carry out abortions on certain grounds. If law was changed to state any grounds, what would stop a government deciding it didn't want any more children from a certain group? I can see the law would try to state it should be the woman's choice only, but in practice I think it could open the gate to ethnic cleansing and the depopulation of certain groups.

@gnilliwdog

so do I.

and l will never change my mind on it

So you think if women are allowed to decide whether they have abortions that will lead to women being forced to have abortions? That's a stratospheric leap right there.

I do not support the right of a woman to abort a foetus ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON. Do you?

Yes I do.

Why are you so keen to force women to birth babies they don't want? How do you propose to make them want the child once it's born?

@psydrive women are allowed abortions in the UK. I am arguing that this provision is sufficient and we do not need to change the law to any time, any reason. And also, of you want to change the law to any time, any reason you need to have seriously considered all ramifications.

Another strawman argument.

Forced sterilisation and abortion of specific populations already occurs, relaxing restrictions isn't going going to somehow increase this problem.

If this is something are genuinely passionate about, consider joining Amnesty and Redress, who will explain the many ways you can contribute (arguing against women's reproductive rights is not one).

My experience is that most people think a healthy baby in third trimester should be protected. If the woman doesn’t want the baby she can then give it up for adoption.

It’s vanishingly rare for women to not know they are pregnant before this point and for many of us ethnically the balance of rights tips once the (healthy, I’m not talking about terminations for medical reasons) babies reach viability. That is the current law in the UK. It’s not somehow an extreme pro life position to support the law.

It's a common trope - fortunately we have a wealth of data demonstrating that in countries with the most restrictive policies, they have the highest rates of abortion, maternal & foetal death, and very later term terminations.

There is no evidence tht loosening the abortion laws in the UK would lead to the government forcing people to have abortions based or race. That's ridiculous and quite sinister for you to suggest that.

Cupid I am not sure it is the moral position to accept an abortion at any stage. Any of the positions on the thread could be the correct moral position. I am not sure there are moral absolutes on this topic. Eg the Romans thought it was fine if you did not want a baby to leave it out on a hillside up to one year old as it was in a sense the mother's property. Is doing that at 40 weeks and 1 hour worse than killing it at 41 weeks whilst still in the womb?