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Original poster

A question for the pro-life members of MN

654 replies

SemperIdem · 28/06/2022 16:28

The biggest argument always boils down to “taking a life away, acting like God”.

So - how does IVF sit with you? Are you anti it, because it is “acting like God”. Are you for it because acting like God to create a life is somehow fine whereas taking one away is not?

Do you understand that many IVF pregnancies are high risk and may ultimately require medical management aka abortions?

I’m firmly pro science and think access to both abortions and IVF is a wonderful thing, for avoidance of doubt.

One never sees protests outside fertility clinics and I wondered why.

OP posts:
Original poster
SemperIdem · 01/07/2022 19:32

@Haveasecret BPAS is very informative on this.

NICE report this is specifically about abortions carried out after 24 weeks.

OP posts:
gnilliwdog · 01/07/2022 19:32

@Haveasecret My view would be that at 23 weeks a foetus is absolutely a life. It even stands a chance of survival outside the womb, with medical care. You could look at foetus development at 23 weeks to get an idea of the stage it is at. I don't know why some people would not call it a life, but that maybe because that would not be congruent with being willing to terminate it. Those people who believe it would be OK to abort a 23 week old healthy foetus prioritise what the mother wants. So, I expect whether the foetus feels pain, feels emotion etc is an irrelevancy to them, because it is the mother's wishes that come first. I am not sure about the cleft palate issue. I was under the impression a late termination would only be for a condition incompatible with life in this country.

ReneBumsWombats · 01/07/2022 19:34

I expect whether the foetus feels pain, feels emotion etc is an irrelevancy to them, because it is the mother's wishes that come first.

The mother doesn't have only "wishes". She feels pain and emotion at least as much as the foetus does.

CupidStunt22 · 01/07/2022 19:38

ReneBumsWombats · 01/07/2022 19:34

I expect whether the foetus feels pain, feels emotion etc is an irrelevancy to them, because it is the mother's wishes that come first.

The mother doesn't have only "wishes". She feels pain and emotion at least as much as the foetus does.

Woman. Not mother. A Mother is a woman who has a child, not a woman who is pregnant. She has a termination so as to not become a mother. The term you want is woman (or girl, as appropriate).

gnilliwdog · 01/07/2022 19:46

@ReneBumsWombats Yes, OK. So does it correctly represent your view to say that whatever state of sentience the foetus has, it is subordinate to the wishes of the pregnant woman?

ReneBumsWombats · 01/07/2022 19:57

gnilliwdog · 01/07/2022 19:46

@ReneBumsWombats Yes, OK. So does it correctly represent your view to say that whatever state of sentience the foetus has, it is subordinate to the wishes of the pregnant woman?

Again, the foetus has "sentience", while the woman has "wishes". I'm sure it's not intentional, but you keep using much stronger language to describe the state of the foetus - pain, emotions, sentience - while the woman has only "wishes".

ReneBumsWombats · 01/07/2022 19:58

CupidStunt22 · 01/07/2022 19:38

Woman. Not mother. A Mother is a woman who has a child, not a woman who is pregnant. She has a termination so as to not become a mother. The term you want is woman (or girl, as appropriate).

Show quote history

Yes, you're right.

gnilliwdog · 01/07/2022 20:04

@ReneBumsWombats I'll rephrase then. The pain, emotions and sentience of the pregnant woman are more important then the pain, emotions and sentience of the foetus she is carrying. Is that better. I was trying to present the arguments for @Haveasecret but they may possibly have had to go and do something else.

ReneBumsWombats · 01/07/2022 20:16

The pain, emotions and sentience of the pregnant woman are more important then the pain, emotions and sentience of the foetus she is carrying.

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the foetus experiences pain, emotions and sentience, yes.

Queensize · 01/07/2022 20:18

IVF is usually traditionally condemned because of the wastage of embryos. To pp who compared broken bones with medical intervention with regard to fertility - these things are not comparable! The Catholic (not mine) objection is about the potential of life from embryos - and the fact that IVF aims to create a surplus. Mending broken bones is neither here nor there.

LuckySantangelo35 · 01/07/2022 20:31

@gnilliwdog

yep, you got it in one - the woman’s feelings are more important

a woman does not stop becoming a person when she becomes pregnant remember, she is not a vessel devoid of feelings

hepatocyte · 01/07/2022 21:29

LuckySantangelo35 · 01/07/2022 20:31

@gnilliwdog

yep, you got it in one - the woman’s feelings are more important

a woman does not stop becoming a person when she becomes pregnant remember, she is not a vessel devoid of feelings

And it's an individual woman's feelings about her own pregnancy

If someone else doesn't ever want an abortion, doesn't want one after 12 weeks, would only have one for medical reasons, then I would just as passionately be arguing for her right choose and right to support to keep the baby.

Xenia · 01/07/2022 21:54

"condition incompatible with life in this country." No the Abortion Act allows abortion for disabilities right up to birth even if the baby could live such as down's where over 90% of women choose to kill the baby before birth. I support our current abortion laws as they are a reasonable compromise and it is too much of a can of worms to start changing them.

Xenia · 01/07/2022 21:54

( I should add however that in the UK hardly anyone waits until a late stage to have an abortion so the fact it may be allowed very late on is not really very significant)

gnilliwdog · 01/07/2022 22:08

Well, glad I have understood the arguments. I can't agree the feelings of the woman should take precedence over the life of a foetus at every stage. Early abortion is available, later abortion if there are medical complications is available (I am talking about the UK.) You are proposing a scenario where, as the baby is in the birth canal, a woman can demand an abortion, saying only she does not want it, or changed her mind. You are saying there is no moral issue with this, because it is the woman's choice. It is all very well saying this will never happen, we have never made it an option. It is all very well saying you trust women, but there are women who make immoral decisions. I don't believe that legislation stating a woman can have an abortion at any time, for any reason, will not be abused by governments, partners, families or any one who wants to coerce a woman to do so. What you are proposing is a nightmare. I can not imagine a society where we would accept doctors killing what look like new born babies, because the mother requested it (or someone made her do so.) A woman has up to 24 weeks to get an abortion in the UK. That's enough time to decide if she wants it or not. More complex situations are also covered. But we have not said that a woman can decide whether to keep a pregnancy right up until the last minute, and I really don't think we should.

foliageeverywhere · 01/07/2022 22:12

You are proposing a scenario where, as the baby is in the birth canal, a woman can demand an abortion

Think you're revealing your agenda here @gnilliwdog

Straight out of the "pro-life" playbook

Try and think about what people are saying to you

ReneBumsWombats · 01/07/2022 22:15

I can't agree the feelings of the woman should take precedence over the life of a foetus at every stage.

Yet again, the foetus has "life", the woman has "feelings". Nothing she has, as an actual living person, equals what the foetus has.

Why do women become even more disposable when they're pregnant?

ReneBumsWombats · 01/07/2022 22:16

But the good news, of course, is that if you don't agree with abortion past X weeks - even if no amount of explanation of the reality of late term abortions will put it in context for you - then you never need to have one. Nobody will force you to abort against your will.

foliageeverywhere · 01/07/2022 22:20

ReneBumsWombats · 01/07/2022 22:15

I can't agree the feelings of the woman should take precedence over the life of a foetus at every stage.

Yet again, the foetus has "life", the woman has "feelings". Nothing she has, as an actual living person, equals what the foetus has.

Why do women become even more disposable when they're pregnant?

Aye.

See the red states attempt to push through medication bans for pregnant women. Depressed, in pain, need cancer treatment? Too bad, we've said goodbye to a risk/benefit analysis and instead it's a blanket no.

Normally I'm not a fan of the slippery slope argument, but it is very very obvious what happens once you start chipping away at women's rights, as @gnilliwdog is proposing.

foliageeverywhere · 01/07/2022 22:22

ReneBumsWombats · 01/07/2022 22:16

But the good news, of course, is that if you don't agree with abortion past X weeks - even if no amount of explanation of the reality of late term abortions will put it in context for you - then you never need to have one. Nobody will force you to abort against your will.

THIS

It's what makes me so cross about the pro-life contingent.

If you're pro-choice, you are pro supporting women through family planning & pregnancy. Someone else's health (and potential foetus) is not your business.

gnilliwdog · 01/07/2022 22:26

Xenia · 01/07/2022 21:54

"condition incompatible with life in this country." No the Abortion Act allows abortion for disabilities right up to birth even if the baby could live such as down's where over 90% of women choose to kill the baby before birth. I support our current abortion laws as they are a reasonable compromise and it is too much of a can of worms to start changing them.

Interesting, I didn't know that. I wonder how many disabilities they can screen for, and what they are working on.

NotJust3SmallWords · 01/07/2022 22:39

Interestingly (maybe...) I've become more pro-choice as I've gone through infertility and many rounds of ivf.

This is only my personal opinion so please disregard if it doesn't fit with you, but I've come to realise that until you get to a certain stage, it's very sad if a pregnancy doesn't work out but in my view it's not a person dying. Not like a born actual person. None of my embryos who didn't make it were a baby. Until a pregnancy is it a certain stage, anything could happen. Again, I don't mean to hurt anyone with this, but it's my feeling on it.

gnilliwdog · 01/07/2022 22:40

@ReneBumsWombats Well, of course it is the life of a foetus that is being ended because of the feelings of a woman in an unwanted pregnancy! If a woman is in pain or her life in danger it's a medical termination. I am talking about pregnancies that are unwanted, not those that are dangerous. And even if I never need an abortion, I can still say that ANY REASON is not sufficient grounds to kill a 40 week old foetus.

LuckySantangelo35 · 01/07/2022 22:49

@Gnusmas

“I can't agree the feelings of the woman should take precedence over the life of a foetus at every stage.”

really?? Can you not? Whose gonna take care of that life then? You? Are you going to devote your life to raising that baby for 18 years? No? If not you really cannot pass judgement

LuckySantangelo35 · 01/07/2022 22:54

@gnilliwdog

“I can't agree the feelings of the woman should take precedence over the life of a foetus at every stage.”

really?? Can you not? Whose gonna take care of that life then? You? Are you going to devote your life to raising that baby for 18 years? No? If not you really cannot pass judgement