A question for the pro-life members of MN

[SemperIdem]

The biggest argument always boils down to “taking a life away, acting like God”.

So - how does IVF sit with you? Are you anti it, because it is “acting like God”. Are you for it because acting like God to create a life is somehow fine whereas taking one away is not?

Do you understand that many IVF pregnancies are high risk and may ultimately require medical management aka abortions?

I’m firmly pro science and think access to both abortions and IVF is a wonderful thing, for avoidance of doubt.

One never sees protests outside fertility clinics and I wondered why.

A lot of the time I hear how it is the woman’s choice because her body is what’s keeping the baby alive - but as you’ve said it’s the same with a newborn - it needs an adult to keep it alive the level of responsibility is the same regardless of whether that’s a baby in utero or a newborn at a few hours old - it relies on another human to live?

I refuse to believe this is a serious argument. It's far too stupid. I don't for a minute believe you can't tell the difference between a foetus that is inside a womans body and reliant on her and affecting her and is not a person, and an actual newborn baby who could be looked after by absolutely anyone.

I'm genuinely curious why you need to work anything out or why you need to pick a place to stand on it...not your body, not your business covers it pretty well.

If anyone is against abortion, don't have one. It's that simple. I've never understood quite why anyone thinks they should get to have an opinion on what anyone else does with their uterus.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion on any subject. In forming that opinion I’m allowed to ask questions or are you just trying to silence anyone questioning this ? Why can’t I ask? Why can’t I pick a stance after looking at the facts and listening to the opinions of others ?

And where have I said I’m against abortion ? I haven’t said that . I’m just trying to join in on a thread and ask questions and seek opinions from others , agree or disagree with things- it’s part of conversation/debate

Are they? Since when? Are you allowed an opinion on what I should have for dinner or what I should wear tomorrow? No, of course not. So why on earth should you or anyone else have an opinion on whether I should be forced to give birth to an unwanted child? Do you honestly think that you should have a stance on that?

It's not a thought exercise. Millions of women are having their rights stripped from them by people who think their opinions on this should matter. They shouldn't. Abortion is a human right and the only person who should ever decide if a woman should have one is that woman.

It’s sad how you are being so rude- you could actually engage in adult conversation with me and get your point across but instead you’ve got defensive and called my questioning stupid when you could have explained why you feel the two scenarios are not the same

I’m trying to form a PERSONAL opinion.

im trying to ask questions and find out more yet you’re speaking to me like I’m an idiot and it’s quite frankly horrendously inappropriate

I’m not trying to say what anyone else should or shouldn’t do. I’m trying to figure out how I actually feel about this personally. Just trying to pull apart all the facts and opinions on when life begins , seeing what others think and believe , looking at scientific facts about stages of fetal development and just thinking about what I actually think as I feel conflicted - I’m allowed my own opinion and I’m allowed to have a process in forming that opikn

*opinion

And when I have formed my opinion I don’t think for a second that my opinion whatever it is should have any bearing on anyone else. But as I said I’m allowed to voice my uncertainty and ask questions. You’re being aggressive and trying to shut down someone trying to gain knowledge and participate in conversation

@Haveasecret I don't think you will get clear answers here, as posters seem to be at the extreme and radical end of pro abortion arguments. Many believe a woman should be able to have an abortion at any time, up to birth, for any reason. They do not think a foetus counts as a life, until it is actually born. They believe only the pregnant woman has the right to decide to keep or end a pregnancy, and the law should not make any caveats about it. There are more moderate pro choice people who believe abortion should be available on demand up to 12-16 weeks, and afterwards if there are medical grounds. Where the pro choice people part ways is when abortion of a healthy foetus becomes unethical, as far as I can tell. The extreme end of the pro choice spectrum is not really interested in any other views, they do not think there should be any debate.

Thankyou I think you are right this may not be the thread for me to discuss things on I was just trying to get some more information, knowledge, opinions as I don’t feel I have a clear cut view one way or another as there are so many complicating factors in my mind.
Thankyou for your response though i think I just wanted to have a measured calm conversation about it all and what you’ve said makes sense

Yes, I am sorry people spoke to you harshly. There are strong opinions and it is an emotive topic. I am happy to discuss if you wish. I have my own views and have now learned something about the various other viewpoints out there.

They believe only the pregnant woman has the right to decide to keep or end a pregnancy

Yes, we do.

The extreme end of the pro choice spectrum is not really interested in any other views, they do not think there should be any debate.

Nobody has told you that you aren't allowed to speak. Why do you take that from people disagreeing with you?

I feel like yes I obviously feel abortion needs to be available to women. But I am so conflicted because it seems to me you can have two women for example both 23 weeks pregnant and one considers her pregnancy a baby and the other considers her pregnancy as nothing at all and whilst I feel they both have valid personal opinions the development of those foetuses is at the same stage and on the cusp of viability so it confuses me.

i feel confused too about abortion up until birth - for conditions totally incompatible with life - yes the choice should be there but I’ve read accounts where it is allowed due to things like cleft lip and palate? Is this true ? I’m not sure I feel that that’s ok if something that could be treated is then a reason to terminate ? I just feel very conflicted.

you can have two women for example both 23 weeks pregnant and one considers her pregnancy a baby and the other considers her pregnancy as nothing at all and whilst I feel they both have valid personal opinions the development of those foetuses is at the same stage and on the cusp of viability so it confuses me.

All you need to understand is that it's a personal decision. They don't have to feel the same way about it. They just have to have the same options.

If everyone felt the same way, everyone would make the same choice.

But I want to know, to understand as regardless of the individual stance on what the pregnancy is , biologically, scientifically they are both at the same stage - it’s not nothing - there is ‘something’ living growing , but is it a life and how is that defined? I think that’s what’s confusing me and I don’t know where I stand personally on it so just trying to work that out

@ReneBumsWombats No, nobody has said that to me and I've enjoyed discussing with you, even though we are arguing. But calling @Haveasecret 'stupid', or saying they have no right to an opinion was shouting them down. I am also coming across the idea of 'no debate' on other threads which hold the view that abortion at any time, for any reason should be a woman's right. Don't know if it's OK to mention that?

Also later term abortion- yes I can understand when there are incompatible with life issues but for less than that ? Is that ok ? I’m not sure it is ? Of a foetus is essentially healthy but a condition is classified wrongly so for example a cleft palate can be a reason to terminate at a late stage ?

@Haveasecret

I do think a woman’s right to choose should not be caveated by law. I no more believe in forced abortions than I do forced birth. The unborn should never have priority over the living.

That’s not to say I didn’t think after a certain point in my wanted, happily conceived, pregnancy I didn’t consider the foetus a baby, of course I did. For me it was after 24 weeks. However I also made it explicitly clear that should a situation arise during birth where a choice had to be made between me or the baby - it was me I wanted to be chosen. I’d die for my child - but I wouldn’t die for an unborn potential life, regardless of gestation.

Is there an official list I could look at somewhere that lists the conditions that are considered a reason to abort late term ?

I expect they mean "no debate" as in, you don't get a say in what happens to their bodies and lives. I doubt they're offended at the concept of there being a thread about it.

You're allowed to say what you think and so are they. I can't blame anyone for being sick of going over the realities of late term abortions, though. How many times...

Because I read various things but I’d like to see actual information from a genuine totally accurate source

My position is this... if you want to go toward "God's will" then anyone who doesn't want abortion legalised should opt out of any medical intervention that saves their lives. After all, its not in Gods plan to be saved..