A question for the pro-life members of MN

[SemperIdem]

The biggest argument always boils down to “taking a life away, acting like God”.

So - how does IVF sit with you? Are you anti it, because it is “acting like God”. Are you for it because acting like God to create a life is somehow fine whereas taking one away is not?

Do you understand that many IVF pregnancies are high risk and may ultimately require medical management aka abortions?

I’m firmly pro science and think access to both abortions and IVF is a wonderful thing, for avoidance of doubt.

One never sees protests outside fertility clinics and I wondered why.

@thereareotherways

“And I don't like the way it centres the choice,”

what can be more important that choice?! It’s the woman’s body for gods sake, if a woman’s choice can’t be centred in this instance then when on earth can’t it be

I agree completely @thereareotherways. I'm technically pro choice but it doesn't resonate and I also don't like the idea of a late fetus' life having zero value, I find it unnecessarily cold, even if you support the termination for the woman's sake. We have a great system right now.

And I don't like the way it centres the choice, as if individual agency is the single most important thing to solve for.

That's pretty much the crux of abortion: the idea that the woman chooses whether or not she wishes to subject herself to all the risks and permanent changes of carrying the pregnancy to term. If you don't think that should be centred, maybe you aren't actually pro choice.

I've never heard anyone say that abortion is the best thing. I think everyone agrees that prevention is better than cure. But either you agree that women shouldn't have to have a child if they don't want to, even if you dislike their reasoning process, or you don't.

And I don't like the way it centres the choice, as if individual agency is the single most important thing to solve for

The agency of the pregnant individual is the single most important thing.

That's pretty much the crux of abortion: the idea that the woman chooses whether or not she wishes to subject herself to all the risks and permanent changes of carrying the pregnancy to term. If you don't think that should be centred, maybe you aren't actually pro choice.

Agreeing with England and Wales law, just not the idea of 'any time, any reason' is definitely still pro choice. That means agreeing with any reason up to a certain point. That status quo.

If the criteria for pro choice is up til birth for any reason, that'll be a minority of people. Permanent body changes have already happened by that point.

@Swecret

its still the mothers body and mothers choice

so yes it should be any time and for any reason in my view

It's been explained many times now that late abortions are extremely rare and almost always for medical reasons.

and yet they insist on bringing it up repeatedly...

The pro lifers in America seem also to be pro gun ownership. Go figure.

Exactly. They think it's a great talking point for the forced birth agenda. Nutters talking about 'healthy women' aborting 'healthy babies' at 40 weeks

If you don't think that should be centred, maybe you aren't actually pro choice.

I think this was the entire point of my post.

It's an important consideration but not the only consideration.

If no-one is having late-term abortions for non-medical reasons then I don't understand why it's so important to insist on "any time for any reason" as the purity test.

Possibly because, although it pretty much never happens, it's brought up again and again to try to muddy the waters around women's bodily autonomy.

You "know" nothing of the sort. You believe it, based on your own further personal beliefs about when life begins and why women don't deserve bodily autonomy. And you want to force those beliefs on everyone else while congratulating yourself for caring about life.

If you cared about choices that impact upon life, you wouldn't support a system that will have women, including victims of rape, domestic abuse and people trafficking, dying in back alleys because that risk was preferable to the horrors you would force upon them.

You don't get a free pass for this by declaring blithely that you "don't know" how to protect against it. There is a way to protect against it: safe, legal abortion, which you never have to have if it goes against your beliefs.

You are pro several things, but life sure as hell isn't one of them. Not existing female ones.

OP:

The correct term is “anti abortion”. There is a difference.

@mublma everything you've said means nothing to atheists.

As for "evidence" in a story book, might as well be reading Colin the Caterpillar 🤷🏼‍♀️

I do know that it shouldn’t be acceptable for a ‘woman’s choice’ to kill another life

Oh let me please call fat BALLS to this statement. You "know" absolutely nothing and your sanctimonious little sound bite proves it. You are free to make whatever decisions you wish for your body. You have no right to tell me or any other woman what we should do with our bodies. You have zero regard for the lives of the women and girls that will die because of people like you and your "killing another life" bullshit.

Didn't they do this at Nicaea because there were so many different accounts floating around that they had to make a decision to which ones to use? And agreed, for some reason, to include the one by the antisemitic guy whose epiphany came after he fell off his donkey and hit his head?

That was in 325 AD. Time for a review, do you think?

Or accept it, if you wish. Practise your religion in freedom, by all means. But if we are all going to be accountable to God, why not leave it between Him and us?

Women deserve bodily autonomy, but abortion isn’t that. Abortion is killing another life because it is inconvenient to you

No. Those are YOUR beliefs. You choose to believe in stories and fairy tales. All power to you. You do NOT get to enforce your beliefs on other people. It utterly enrages me that you think you have this right. How dare you.

As mentioned up thread I work with marginalised people such as disabled children and abused women but also women on probation and with mental health problems.

Then you should be even more ashamed of what further horrors you would force upon them. Doesn't sound like you went into it for the right reasons.