A question for the pro-life members of MN

[SemperIdem]

The biggest argument always boils down to “taking a life away, acting like God”.

So - how does IVF sit with you? Are you anti it, because it is “acting like God”. Are you for it because acting like God to create a life is somehow fine whereas taking one away is not?

Do you understand that many IVF pregnancies are high risk and may ultimately require medical management aka abortions?

I’m firmly pro science and think access to both abortions and IVF is a wonderful thing, for avoidance of doubt.

One never sees protests outside fertility clinics and I wondered why.

Well boomer, as an insult, comes up quite frequently on MN. Apparently we aren't entitled to an opinion as we had it so easy. Not that I noticed how easy it was in the 70s. It isn't just an American thing, neither are all the other age related names, Generation X, Millennials or whatever.

Anyway different subject, I just thought as someone had done a list of people she thought were subject to prejudice I add one Mumsnet is not for religious people, non white people, people who are not struggling financially - you get so much hate and are dismissed of your experiences if you fall within these groups and offer an opinion. I think older people would be appropriate to add to that list. I suppose my mistake was choosing a name that indicated I was older but I'm not ashamed of being my age, the alternative doesn't seem that attractive at the moment as I have things to do.

What age? I don't think it matters, people are people and just like the other groups mentioned I think older people aren't always welcome here.

Don't fret @ancientgran its not older people its just people who don't follow the correct thinking.

Then why are you in favour of a system that will in fact end up with women dying in hot baths and back streets, or at the hands of abusers?

Why are their lives disposable? Where is the dignity to clothe them?

🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

Not all Catholics are the same. I could certainly name lots of Catholics who have used contraception for example, I could tell you priests who will give you absolution for using contraception, I know Catholics who most definitely aren't against IVF and I know Catholics who find abortion a difficult subject but who would support a woman making a choice.

The idea that 1.3bn Catholics all believe exactly the same thing is very strange to me. Catholic beliefs develop and change, when I was a child to eat meat on a Friday was unheard of but that has changed, if I wanted to take Communion I needed to fast from the night before, then it became 3 hrs, then it became 1 hr.
I loved the Latin Mass, it is rarely heard now. Walking into a Catholic church for a woman meant covering your head, to go into Mass without a hat/scarf or other covering was pretty well unthinkable but it isn't an issue now. I remember the first time I took communion from a married priest with his children kneeling beside me, it would have been unthinkable when I was growing up.

If Pope John XXIII had lived and continued the work of Vatican II and the commission he set up to study contraception then contraception might have been permitted in the Catholic church 50 years ago.

Like almost, probably every, demographic in the world there will be a variety of opinions.

Maybe but if so doesn't that go for every group on the list? Or are some groups so unacceptable that it doesn't matter if they follow correct thinking.

@LadyAnnabelsTapestries

why do you not agree with abortion?

Alot of modern research using stem cells is being done on induced pluripotent stem cells(iPSC). These are stem cells taken from an adult for example skin tissue, reprogrammed back to an embryonic state and then grown up to whatever tissue type you want. In terms of medical application it would be better to treat patients with their own tissue as it would massively reduce complications associated with rejection. But this research is still being developed.
But of course there is still research that use embryonic stem cells although I think this will diminish more as the iPSC technology develops

@mublma

you are soooooooo not pro-life.

you are very clearly anti- women’s lives. Seeing them as a vessel for childbirth, happy for them to risk their lives in childbirth or from illegal abortion.

why are women’s lives of such lesser importance in your view?

or are you just a troll?

@LifeExperience

you are soooooooo not pro-life.

you are very clearly anti- women’s lives. Seeing them as a vessel for childbirth, happy for them to risk their lives in childbirth or from illegal abortion.

why are women’s lives of such lesser importance in your view?

or are you just a troll?

@LuckySantangelo35

Yes, of course anyone with a different opinion to you must be a troll… 🤔

I can’t stand forced birthers

they all hate women

they are all lacking in empathy and compassion

i couldn’t sit in the same room as one never mind be friends with one

Another one who can’t accept other people might have a different point of view… welcome to the 21st century.

Perhaps Mumsnet should have a list of absolute opinions that are “acceptable”
and “not acceptable” to express?

It's true though.

Pro-lifers don't care about the unborn babies. It's all about control of women. They drone on about how life is precious but it's utter bullshit. They don't care about the 10s of thousands of women who die each year due to unsafe abortions. They don't care what happens when those unwanted babies end up in car or whatever, they just want to see women punished.

Personally I couldn't be friends with anyone like that.

What about the cases that downs does cause serious disability?

This from the website
Do people with Down's syndrome have medical problems?
Certain health problems are more common in people with Down's syndrome than in the rest of the population. These include:

40-50% of babies with Down's syndrome are born with heart problems, many of which require heart surgery;A significant number of people with Down's syndrome will have hearing and sight problems;Thyroid disorder;Poor immune system;Respiratory problems, coughs and colds;Obstructed gastrointestinal tract.

and of course some have no issues. If it's your baby and no one knows what issues you will have to face when its born what choice will you make.
I can categorically state I do not have what it takes to bring a disabled child up. (This is academic now, I'm well over child bearing age) But that's me. I cannot possibly judge other women for the choices they make, because I trust them to know what they are capable of.

If you're pro life but you don't try to force this view on others and understand that abortion services should be there for those who need them, that's fine.

But most of the pro-life crowd try to force others to do things that they don't want to, for whatever reason.

There is a difference.

Everyone should have the choice.

If you're pro life but you don't try to force this view on others and understand that abortion services should be there for those who need them, that's fine.

That's pro choice.

@PetraBP

some views and beliefs are unacceptable though.

And forced birthers views to me are unacceptable because they are so dangerous.

forcing women to give birth results in so much pain and suffering for women. It could kill them. Not to mention the toll on their mental health. But fuck women eh?! They should never have had sex should they? Is that your view?

Also for the babies they are forced to gestate and give birth to - ending up unwanted, in care etc.
how is that better for them?

Im living in the 21st century because I support women’s rights to choose. It’s you who’s living in the dark ages mate

Some people on this thread have said that they personally are pro life, but don't wish to take away the choice that others have. I'm just going off of that.

I don't actually like the term pro-life. It only suggests that those who are pro-choice want to kill babies. It should be pro-choice and anti-choice.

Some people on this thread have said that they personally are pro life, but don't wish to take away the choice that others have.

Those people are pro choice. Their personal choice would be not to terminate.

I'd call the pro lifers pro forced birthers, because they don't care about life at all once it actually exists indisputably. Women dying from botched abortions or abusive partners clearly don't matter at all. One pro lifer upthread had a list of types of harm done by organ harvesting but had absolutely nothing to say when it was pointed out that the same harms are done through forced birth.

Women simply do not matter and they have no way around that. Women are incubators. Pregnancy and childbirth are not significant or life changing. You can simply grow your baby and then give it up for adoption.

You can't reason with these people. They cloak it in holy language, whether they are religious or not, but it all comes down to not seeing pregnant women as people with bodily autonomy.

Agree with all of this

forced birthers do not care about women at all

end of

if any forced birthers on here feel they can argue against that I’d love to hear it

See I think this is what gets me most. You choose to believe in something and live your life based on what is written (well, you pick some bits and ignore other bits) in an old book of stories. I can't stop you believing in this thing but I absolutely don't believe in it. Quite simply why should what you believe mean that you have got any right to tell me what to do with my life? Seriously, why?

If a person personally wouldn't want an abortion but accepts that the choice to have one has to be open to other women, that's a pro-choice stance. Pro-choice is not pro-abortion, it's just the acceptance that safe abortion has to be available.

Banning abortion doesn't stop abortion from happening, it just makes it harder and more dangerous.

Okay I mis-worded my post, sorry I was only repeating what others had said.

For the record, I know that pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion, and I know that pro-life has nothing to do with life.

As I said, people should stop referring to themselves as pro-life. You either respect choices or you don't.

I don't call myself pro-choice and feel alienated from the movement, although I support the current laws in England & Wales including TFMR up to term.

I don't like the way pro-choice has become synonymous with "any time, for any reason, only the mother's choice". This isn't what the E&W laws allow. I stopped calling myself pro-choice because other people told me I wasn't allowed to be, so, fine.

And I don't like the way it centres the choice, as if individual agency is the single most important thing to solve for. I don't call myself "pro-choice" on the matter of women in prostitution, although I don't think they should be criminalised.