A question for the pro-life members of MN

[SemperIdem]

The biggest argument always boils down to “taking a life away, acting like God”.

So - how does IVF sit with you? Are you anti it, because it is “acting like God”. Are you for it because acting like God to create a life is somehow fine whereas taking one away is not?

Do you understand that many IVF pregnancies are high risk and may ultimately require medical management aka abortions?

I’m firmly pro science and think access to both abortions and IVF is a wonderful thing, for avoidance of doubt.

One never sees protests outside fertility clinics and I wondered why.

And resoundingly MY BODY MY CHOICE when it comes to wearing a mask & getting vaccinated, but not for basic reproductive rights.

In what world can they claim children wearing masks is abusive and a violation, but in the same breath think they shouldn't be able to have a termination.

I'm appalled by the extreme stance In the states but I'm finding the arguments on here dualistic and very black and white.
I don't have any problem with IVF and discarding very early undeveloped embryos.
I don't however agree that a foetus is just part of the mother's body. At a certain point there are two individuals involved (and there has been a lot of debate about where that point lies). It worries me to see women being advised to take their time over making a decision whilst the foetus is developing.
Not all Christians are adamantly against all terminations, although a good percentage of fundamentalists are.
I don't see IVF and termination of pregnancy as opposite sides of the same coin at all.
It's a complex issue and I'm not sure that people calling each other vile etc. helps.
I do think it's very hypocritical to be "pro-life" but not offer care and help to mothers and children after the baby is born.

@hepatocyte , @AnnieSnap - it really doesn't make any sense to me either. The states

Sorry, posted to soon. Criminalizing abortion in these states has got be about oppression and genocide. It's almost like they want a return to pre civil war America. I feel like there is no other way to make sense of it.

Pro-lifers really need to have a look at what needs to be done to make women not NEED abortions. To look at why are women choosing to get them, we don’t just go down the clinic for a bit of laugh to brighten up an otherwise dull day.

For an example of pro-life in action-
My mum was religious pro-lifer so when I found I was pregnant at 17, she very much said not to have abortion- but gave unconditional support to me, providing a home, food, unlimited childcare care, the supported me through university until I had a good job and home of my own and was able to provide for and support my child myself.

This country is quite harsh enough on single mums, the poor, and those with disabilities- but the USA is brutal. No free healthcare, no maternity pay, few housing rights. For the many women who are in or on the edge of poverty, bringing a baby into the world could result in destitution.

Don’t want abortions- well provide free easy accessible contraception, maternity care, health care, affordable childcare and make ‘choosing life’ a viable option.

I know a very, very pro life couple and they are very anti ivf. All keen for chemotherapy etc though. I just can’t get my head around their reasoning.

Yes @TinyTornado

And it really makes you wonder what the end goal is here, when many are also pushing to make contraception harder or impossible to access (and removing sex education from the curriculum)

I wrote the opposite - please re-read - I wrote it is not for people who are NOT struggling financially.

So if you're well off it's not the place for you, generally.

You didn't seem to have an opinion on religious and non white people.

Anyway, you are free to disagree as I am to believe.

There's no connection between being pro-life and chemotherapy. It's not about opposing medical treatments in general.

I was raped at 14; pregnant. I had an abortion. I'm now 34 with two children.

I can't even imagine having a baby at 14. I am so grateful that having an abortion was an option for me.

There will be so many unwanted babies now in America. Where will the funding be for them? For foster parents? For care homes? For the psychological help they will need?

What about the mothers?

I'm utterly distraught with what is going on. What is happening??

Unfortunately there is. Among the many restrictions that be brought in alongside the abortion bans is the prevention of pregnant women from accessing interventions like chemotherapy, and this is something many "pro-lifers" campaign for.

There is a world of difference between throwing away embryos and abortion. Embryos in the lab cannot develop into babies as they are, and even if you didn't throw them away, nothing would become of them. Abortion, OTOH, is removing a viable fetus that, left unmolested, would develop into a fully grown human.

Hi @LadyAnnabelsTapestries

I'd like to explore your empathy and would be interested in your responses.

Do you feel a 12 year old child who becomes pregnant should be allowed an abortion?

Do you believe a couple who have failed to conceive a baby don't deserve medical intervention to help them?

Do you determine that a rape victim who becomes pregnant should be forced to carry that child to term?

Are you saying that a single man or woman who desperately want to be parents and would be amazing parents don't deserve the opportunity to bring a child into the world through surrogacy?

I'm interested to understand if you blindly follow a doctrine with complete disregard for humans and the harm that can be inflicted due to that. Would a 'God' who purports to represent love be so cruel and uncaring?

If you feel all of the above examples don't deserve empathy then your idea of God is certainly a cruel unloving one.

Respectable middle class couples will be delighted to adopt womb wet babies, I'm sure. And someone will make a killing. Adoption can cost thousands in America 🙄

But a lot of the ‘pro-life’ Americans hold the stance that once an egg is fertilised a new life has formed, it does not make sense that some are against IUDs and contraceptive pills on the grounds that they might prevent a fertilised egg from implanting, yet fine with destroying a healthy embryo that has developed from a fertilised egg.

@UnimpeachableBravery - I'm in the US and also happen to be an adoptive mom. Domestic new born adoption in the US is very expensive, but that's because the agencies aren't funded through the government. The adoptive parents pay their operating costs through fees. It's not legal to sell a baby in America.

I was also that 14 year old.

I asked an American pro lifer earlier all those questions, eg what about rape victims? Teen/child rape victims? Who will look after the babies after they are born.

Apparently if you've been raped you should know pregnancy might happen so should take "plan b" (is that the morning after pill?). And women who are fertile should take contraception just in case. Even the non sexually active ones in case they get raped.

And less than 1% of abortions are due to rape so its not a big enough issue to mean abortion should be an option. Apparently the majority are because women 'want to act like hoes not ladies"

Because the baby that is aborted might have been destined to grow up to be something amazing, or cure cancer. They might also have grown up to be a murderer or a rapist.

And something about contraception not being 100%. Didn't understand that one. That's a reason abortion should be allowed surely? Unless you believe women should be punished for enjoying sex.

The mothers don't matter to them. They just want to control women.

And FWIW I'm a Christian and I've had 2 abortions. As far as I'm concerned, if it's a sin (I don't think it is) then its between me and God.

There's a man running to be a US Senator from Ohio. He said he doesn't believe in abortion for rape victims because there's no reason to kill a fetus just because it was conceived in an inconvenient fashion. That's what rape is to him, an inconvenience. He might be a US congressman come November. It's disgraceful.

There are so many of these threads.

I was trying to think of ways to be polite and respectful to all the various viewpoints, but decided that I’d give up.

My basic view is that a woman is in charge of her own body - this should transcend any man’s pov, religion, societal pressure, etc.

I absolutely support a woman’s choice re abortion. And I absolutely support a woman’s choice re IVF. Surely, a woman choosing IVF (not an easy process) is making a conscious decision re a wanted outcome. Whereas a woman deciding to terminate is doing so for the best reasons for all concerned In her particular situation.

Either way, it’s the woman’s body and should be the woman’s choice. It’s not down to religious scribes, nor people in parliament, nor activists online or in the streets. It should be the decision of every single female on the planet.

@Somuchgoo I find the distinction between life and personhood interesting. How do you define personhood? Do you believe that apes, parrots and dolphins have personhood? They're far more developed than a fetus is. Or a baby, for that matter. What about people in comas? I've been clinically dead before, then I was briefly in a coma - did I temporarily stop being a person during this time, but retain my right to life because I remained a potential person? What qualifies as personhood?

Actually, so far as the abortion question - I don't think it matters when a fetus becomes a person. My commitment to abortion is based on the fact that no-one may be legally compelled to utilize their organs to support another person or potential person. Otherwise transplant lists would be a hell of a lot shorter.

Sadly my baby's ultimately fatal heart defect wasnt picked up until 23 weeks as he didn't behave at the 20wk scan and ironically the day he was classed as viable was the day my pregnancy was ended. We had no idea until that point anything had been wrong but it still hasn't changed my views on abortion limits they should stay as they are imo.

Many of the hardliners seem to get over their cognitive dissonance on this by dehumanising those girls and women who aren't wealthy who get pregnant without the 'sanctity' of marriage. I've got into FB debates with some of them and it doesn't take long before someone starts saying the sluts should keep their legs together. The American dream fallacy there seems to be so strong that there's almost no understanding among many groups about poverty and deprivation and how it affects people's autonomy and ability to make choices about their lives.

They also conveniently ignore the rich girls who can pay for their abortions at fancy clinics.

It's much harder to pull yourself up from your bootstraps if you've never had support, decent education, advice, choices, direction etc. There seems to be no understanding of how different it is without a safety net.

The US philosophy of such a small state that people have to sell their homes to pay medical bills because they get sick, is just so anathema to me and many in the UK that it seems like a different world. I cannot understand it culturally but I fear that many of our current Government would love it to be like that here.

@Spabreak excellent post! My thoughts exactly.

I'm 70 next year and it is only on here I would label myself as old because of the abuse I've had and the assumptions people make. I come on here as I am again raising a child, he happens to be a GC and I feel like a mother to him so I don't feel like I shouldn't be able to come on here.

What age? I don't think it matters, people are people and just like the other groups mentioned I think older people aren't always welcome here.