A question for the pro-life members of MN

[SemperIdem]

The biggest argument always boils down to “taking a life away, acting like God”.

So - how does IVF sit with you? Are you anti it, because it is “acting like God”. Are you for it because acting like God to create a life is somehow fine whereas taking one away is not?

Do you understand that many IVF pregnancies are high risk and may ultimately require medical management aka abortions?

I’m firmly pro science and think access to both abortions and IVF is a wonderful thing, for avoidance of doubt.

One never sees protests outside fertility clinics and I wondered why.

Around 25,000 women die every year because they are desperate enough to undergo unsafe, illegal abortions.

All life is precious, apparently, apart from those women.

I don't agree with this statement.

Yes, mumsnetters can be brutal and straightforward in their opinions.

But one thing I have always respected them for is

if you REALLY, REALLY need help then someone is up 4 a.m if need be in the morning and will respond.

For all my trials and tribulations with this board I respect mumsnetters to the ends of the earth for that.

Many many people on here will help in dire circumstances and at the drop of a hat. I respect them for that.

And no, it is not true mumsnet is only for people of higher income brackets.

In particular in respect of education and forward thinking that is NOT true at all.

There was a totally vile American politician on tv. The presenter asked whether he thought it was right a 12 year old who had been raped was forced to continue with her pregnancy (his state said abortion could be done up to a heartbeat, so about 8 weeks). His response was you would know you had been raped within the last 2 months. Totally ignoring the biology of the 8 weeks, trauma and number of reasons why a young child would not come forward. This man is sick, he gets his kicks out of child abuse but actively deepening the pain caused by the abuse. Anyone who thinks the rights of a few cells trumps the need to do everything possible to help that 12 year old rather than put her at severe risk of further life long mental and physical harm and even death is the lowest of the low. Child abuse is disgusting. If anyone was in any doubt what these people are up to and think it might be about protecting children needs to listen to this “man”. There is a special place in hell awaiting him

There were 236 post-24wk abortions performed in England and Wales in 2020. 0.1% of the total number. These are tightly controlled and will all be terminations for serious medical reasons - mother’s life at risk or condition incompatible with life.

So in theory yes, but TMFR over 24wks for pregnancies involving a foetus with Down’s Syndrome with no major anomalies (such as serious cardiac issues) or other factors included would not happen. So it’s an effectively emotive but utterly false, total straw man argument to hold up people who live healthy, happy, independent (or supported) lives with DS as any sort of evidence.

Here are the ONS stats for anyone interested.
www.gov.uk/government/statistics/abortion-statistics-for-england-and-wales-2020/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2020

There is a special place in hell awaiting him

Unlikely, but there's death-ridden hell on earth waiting for the women and girls he's oppressing. And it masquerades as respect for life.

Which comes down to them being anti-abortion for different reasons. Catholics who follow the church's teaching on abortion usually also follow the church's teaching on IVF. The churchnis opposed to IVF not for pro-life reasons ultimately because it believes sex is sacred and conception should occur during a sacred act.

Evangelicals (statistically the most pro life group in the USA) don't have the same perspective on sex as they don't believe in the sacraments. They seem to make some distinction between implanted and non implanted embryos.

Many people who hold an anti abortion position probably don't even realise IVF involves discarding embryos. In pro life terms the coil could also be considered to be destroying viable embryos.

I agree with you but could we add older people to the list? Particularly if the qualify as Boomers.

"I also think we as women we don’t want to lose what an amazing thing having a baby is…."
That may be the case for you but it isn’t the case for all women, which is part of the reason why more and more women in countries like England and Wales are deciding not to have children. I have a number of friends who have no interest in children or any desire to have them, they are also women.

It seems to me that the major difference between anti-abortion groups and pro-choice ones is that pro-choice groups respect difference, they support both the choice to have an abortion and the choice not to have one. And the pro-choice people I know will actively support either choice. Anti-abortion groups are anti-choice, they assume their way is the only way and that their beliefs are the only ones that count, and that their choices should be everyone else’s. And if individuals don’t agree with them or don’t want the same things, then they’ll do their best to force them - including standing outside reproductive health clinics and health centres, intimidating doctors and patients and hurling abuse. However, abortion has existed for centuries in one form or another, if it’s banned or severely limited it won’t stop, it’ll just stop being safe.

"In pro-life terms the coil could also be considered to be destroying viable embryos"
Yes, and in America a number of anti-choice groups trying to ban various forms of contraception, including the coil, now too. A number aren’t that keen on sex that isn’t for procreation purposes either or sex outside marriage. Although, just like many members of the Catholic church, doesn’t seem to have stopped a number of them doing things they technically disapprove of behind closed doors! Sure the mistresses of a rich, right-wing, American Republicans living in anti-abortion states, will have no problem getting the money together to be flown elsewhere to have a termination.

My SIL is strongly pro life and against IVF because of the ‘spare embryos’. She told me that we shouldn’t go through IVF because of this. It didn’t go down well with me, as she and her DH (my DH’s brother) had 4 DC whilst I was infertile. (They have 5 now.)

The IVF cycle was unsuccessful as it turned out that I had no eggs. We eventually adopted and now have 2 DDs of 13 and 10. So the subject was never brought up again, but it really upset me at the time and I still think she was out of order. (We still get on, as our DDs are very close to their cousins.)

I do accept that her position is completely consistent with her pro-life beliefs, so I respect her for that. For her, it’s essential to her Christian faith. (I’m a Christian myself but have a different viewpoint on this issue, Christians are very divided about it.)

OP I get your reasons for starting this thread, but I wonder if discussions like these aren't just opening up a platform for anti-abortion activists? They've been made bolder by what's seen as a victory in America, and many groups across the UK are in active contact with American ones. They will be increasing their efforts to achieve similar outcomes in places like here now, probably starting by arguing for more limitations, before moving towards going for a total ban.

I didn’t know embryos were discarded during IVF until I read this thread (or maybe I did, but forgot). I wouldn’t equate IVF and abortion at all though. Loads of sperm have the chance to fertilise the egg but, in most cases, only one makes it. Most are destined to fail. I would see the embryos in the same light. Some will have a second chance to become a baby, but it’s still a lottery/ not a certainty.

I would class myself as pro-choice, but I would not have an abortion myself. However, I think the Supreme Court is acting appallingly by overturning Roe v Wade. They are punishing and killing women instead of helping them. How many women have gone to jail around the world for killing their babies when they just had a miscarriage? How long before this happens regularly in the US? How often will medical treatment be denied to pregnant women just in case it harms the foetus? The US really needed to tackle expensive child and healthcare, and lack of maternity pay/leave if they really want to reduce abortion. Criminalising it is just disgusting.

The US needs reform of its judicial system or there are going to be many more judgements that are out of step with what the country actually wants.

How old do you want ancientgran?

I am 58. Had an abortion when I was nineteen.

Now have a DD aged sixteen.

I am with all women worldwide on the picket lines to safeguard the rights to termination.

If needed. Women's rights are next.

How old are you ancientgran and why do you even label yourself as old?

And what exactly are Boomers?
I understood 'older' people in the states were supposed to be more progressive and knowledgable about international affairs re Jane Fonda

I think boomers are generally classed as born between 1945 and 1960, but these things have always got a bit of wiggle room.

@stayingpositiveifpossible Boomers are people born in America post WWII when the American economy was growing very rapidly. I think some boomers are progressive for sure. Not sure of any specific statistics on how that generation generally votes though.

I seriously dont understand the boomers thing

Perhaps I am missing a label.

Noone in lovely Somerset here has ever described me as 'old'.

Oh ok me being 64 dont know.

Fit me in.

Goodness what a fxxxing stereotype on this persons part.

FUCK.

sorry that is 58

not that that should have mattered

in matters of inclusivity where are the posters who factor us in

WOW

I support our current abortion laws but many who are against abortion are also against IVF. Eg 1.3bn Catholics are against abortion and against IVF - popepaulvi.com/PDF/Newsletter-FCYoungWomen/FCCO-Newsletter_V4n1_Issue10.pdf

honestly I have a DD aged sixteen

me fifty eight

think I have a pretty good handle on generations

one thing for sure

we will both be at demonstrations against this anti abortion shite together

Bristol at least

see you there mums

together we stand.

x

My issue is that most, if not all American ‘pro life’ people are against abortion, but for the death penalty and guns 🤷‍♀️

See you on the streets hon.

That's one of the puzzlement I have with the argument of playing god, is where do you draw the line, plus why did god give us brains, if heaven forbid we become smarter to create life, advance medicine ect. Or was humans just ment to pray, and say yes master God, ect ?